This is the way I interpreted it. I don't think it's against the spirit of the thread to include China. Even if their WNT is doing better than their MNT... Most of us here are USWNT supporters, and even if we don't want to admit it, soccer is not a dominant culture and even though the USMNT isn't terrible, they are not at the level of the USWNT. So a country like China could have continued to develop their WNT to be at a higher level today just like US Soccer did. If they had invested anywhere near what they did in their gymnastics program over the past 8 years they'd probably be in the top 3 rather than Japan.
Look out..."most of us here are USWNT supporters", you say, but I am a Nadeshiko Japan supporter. And from Italy! So beware saying that Russia could have pushed Japan out of top 3, no matter how much they'd invested... On topic: I could agree with you with no problem, but I am just afraid that this could become a very different thread if interpreted the way you and some others do; I'll be provocative, but I guess that, if you include nations who had a decent (or better) WNT at least in some moments in their history, you could make a totally different top 10, the likes of: China (where is what was once the strongest Asian team and one of the tops of the world, WWC finalist, etc.?) Norway (they'd need a better team, not because of the results of their MNT [I said before that this is only one of the factors] , but because of their history in women football: They were quite on par with Sweden; such a, quite sudden, decline, says that "they should be better" right now) Italy (ok, they're somehow in top 10, but let's get serious: unlike in men's football [where it's a 4 times world champion team], Italy has always been little more than an afterthought in women's football; they seemed to be a factor only in the time before the WWC existed) Netherlands (they're close-to-decent in UEFA, but absoutely nothing compared with the sport culture of their country, and the specific football culture of one of the leading nations of men's football, at least regarding innovation; and they have a quite open mentality that shouldn't discourage women to play football; I guess all this balances the low population) Nigeria (could be Ghana)(even the stronger African teams can't really compete with NTs from other countries; African's MNTs at least had some results at the MNT level, although not beyond QFS, I guess; African WNTs quite never did, and there is a lot of reasons why at least some of them should be better, since they were at youth level!) England (the nation where football was born not only should but MUST do better) Spain Argentina Portugal Brazil (ok, they're constantly at least in top 5, I guess, but thinking at the players' pool they could have, at the talent that they anyway had, and at what Brazil means in men's football, don't you think that, since their male counterparts won 5 world title and WNT won nothing, you could argue that Brazil should anyway be better than that?) I'll admit that I expressely pushed it a little, but, if we really take the sentence in the title of this thread literally, don't you think we're going to end with something like that?
This could apparently sound like a flame (for the bold way it's been couched)... But I am Italian, and I'll easily admit that it's undoubtedly true, at least in some part, and I depressingly live in a quite sexist country... (and a country that, mostly, doesn't take women's football seriously). Although I suggest watching out for generalizations.
Well I didn't say all were. It's just Big Soccer has a higher contingent of US members than other forums I've been on and sometimes they seem to forget here that the US is not a soccer nation. I like that list. What's the problem with posting it? It's got good arguments for most of them. If we just stuck to WPS_Movement's list and derivatives, there wouldn't be any of this interesting discussion.
I understand the reason of your remark, and I mostly agree with it (me too, I didn't think all the focus had to be on the comparison with MNTs), to the point that I repped your post. So, when I questioned you, I was mostly joking, since you had "dared" to mention "my" Japan in your post! Well, I am very interested to hear how the other people who posted on this thread see it. I agree that it could spark an interesting discussion, although in a quite different direction from how the thread originally developed. Let's see how it's receveid and if the thread keeps being vital.
But so are England, France, and a host of other decent footballing nations with some form of women's program in place; but what's new about that...? England, really...? To be honest, I think England's women are exactly where their FA's development methods have taken their men over the past 60 years. Besides the home world cup win in '66, the fourth place in 1990's WC, and the Euro semi's in '96 and '04, England's men aren't exactly the world leaders we think they should be, while the football they have displayed within that time frame has been anything but revolutionary too. I mean, compared to the men, once again England's women will have more potential for success in their Euro's, and will likely have more potential within their WC come 2015. So given the right circumstances of another home tournament in the next 15 years, would it be that crazy to think that England's women could potentially lift a major trophy before the men? Oh, and weren't Norway's women always punching way above their weight back when they were able to win world cups and Olympic golds? They'll continue to produce quality players, but it was always going to be a tough task to maintain elite global status within a region like UEFA, and they won't be the last significant nation to find serious difficulties in maintaining elite status in the future either.
I apologize as I didn't mean to stereotype or generalize your nation as I'm sure there are many males and females that would also welcome and support their women's national team. I know during the WWC 11' which was held in a very serious footballing nation of Germany, even though there were women's football teams, there was an impressive crowd atmosphere and wonderful support.
Well, the end of the world didn't happen today, so nations across the world can carry on and continue to grow the sport of football (soccer), including women's football.
WPS_Movement, I wasn't going to ask, since I thought the world was going to end anyway, but, since we're still here, what do you think of the "new" direction the thread took? About nations who has decent-to-good National Teams but should be better anyway?
Good question. I will rank these. 0.) China (not even #1. i put them even worse. far under-achieving for their population) 1.) Brazil (should be #1 in the world, if they had the same funding as USA, Germany, etc.) 2.) Spain (if they pumped in more funding and development into their women, watch out) 3.) Italy (same as Spain) 4.) Russia (I believe they're rankied in top 10 now in the men's game. Women should be better) 5.) Mexico (Men are Top 1o or Top 15 in the world in talent. The women are not there just yet) 6.) Colombia (ranked in the Top 5 now in the men's game. Should have better women) 7.) England (I think their women underachieve in the biggest tournaments. But so do the men) 8.) Netherlands (Another powerhouse in the men's game, and Dutch women are skilled) 9.) Switzerland (a nation that gives women some opportunity. the women should be better) 10.) South Korea (they should be achieving better than what they are) Honorable Mention Nigeria (if Africa would put more funding into the women, Nigeria would be Top 10 every year) Czech Republic (at one point they were Top 10 in the men's game. women not even close) All of these nations above have at least a respectable women's program now, meaning they are realistic candidates to make any WWC going forward (since 24 nations make the WWC now). Even Czech Republic has a chance now, since eight European teams get in. The under-achievement by these nations, has allowed for nations like Australia, New Zealand, Japan, North Korea, Sweden, Norway (historically), and Canada, to over-achieve (and even the USA). If China, Brazil, Spain, Italy, and Russia had poured equal funding into their women over the past 20-25 years, then the USA women wouldn't have near as any many titles, or months at #1 on the FIFA rankings.
Now I am curious: if you should merge together the two rankings you made (i.e. if you should rank all the nations that should have a better team, unregarding if it's because they basically never had a decent one or if it's because they're underperforming compared to their potential) how would it be? It would be more similar to rankings #1 or #2, because you'd feel one of them is more urgent than the other, or it would put together and rank in some way both the types of nations?
Please elaborate? You do realize that a huge problem in Switzerland is the topography, because of the few actually flat pieces of ground there are, pretty much all are being monopolized by men's clubs, right?
i would have to see a list of the countries sisterluke has lived in before vouching for her knowing what she's talking about. argentina i have no clue about, but modern spain doesn't seem terribly sexist to me, italy, once you peel off the superficial layer of the veline, is arguably no more sexist than france... which is hardly more sexist than germany, the UK... or the US. the only countries it's hard to claim are sexist to some extent are the scandinavian ones (et encore...)
tell ya what i'm gonna do. i'm going to interview the captainess of the nati on the subject as soon as she gets back from xmas hols.
I think it is that blatant/overt machismo of certain countries that make it harder for women's sport to succeed there. Sure Italy might not be any more sexist than the US when it comes down to individual mindset, but because of the US' political correct awareness, we collectively try to hide those feelings and push towards the opposite direction. So even if a girl's father thinks that girls should not be playing sports, he would (usually) not say that to his daughter as it would be seen as poor parenting. Whereas in other countries they have no problem telling their daughters not to play sports. Edit: Just to clarify, even though I used the word machismo and gave an example of a father, the problem isn't exclusive just to males. You can take that example and replace it with a mother and you've got the same situation.
there is a kind of sexism involved, but it doesn't keep girls away from sport in general as much as influence which sport they choose. if you count ballet almost all girls in france practice some kind of sport. tennis, swimming, fencing, judo, basketball, handball... looking over the whole spectrum you see that frenchwomen are very sportive. but until very recently soccer was very low on the list*... in fact, judging from the ratio of male to female card-holding participants, both rugby and boxing were apparently more "girl" sports than soccer! when i was in italy it seemed there as well almost all girls under about 16 played some kind of sport; in the small town i knew, mostly volleyball, but that was a leading local male sport too. *sonia bompastor's mother often asked her if she didn't want to consider another discipline... eugenie le sommer never faced the same situation as BOTH her parents were footballers.
Here in Italy volleyball is one of the more played sports, both for males and, especially, females. I didn't know you lived in Italy, Guignol. Just out of curiosity: what was the small town where you were?
That's true. I never thought of ballet as being a sport, but now that you mentioned it, I can see how the case could be made. There are definitely some sports that people in general think are more acceptable for women to play than others.
my daughter devoted more hours and physical suffering to ballet than my son ever did to either soccer or basketball, and she had talent and all the right tools, but competition is at least twice as brutal as any football club academy.
Top nations that have overachieved in women's soccer, compared to their men, its domestic level of football fertility, and compared to the level of football (soccer) that their nation is accustomed to in its overall popularity of the sport domestically. 1.) USA (despite funding, six major int'l tournament titles. Germany has two major int'l titles) 2.) Norway (historically have over-achieved greatly, up until the past couple of tournaments) 3.) Sweden (an over-achieving nation for awhile. they get the most out of what they can get) 4.) Japan (their men aren't that great. they have support, but over-achieve, esp. recently) 5.) Canada (they've been competitive. have been to multiple semifinals of major tournaments) 6.) North Korea (still haven't gotten too far in major tournaments, but always competitive) 7.) Australia (the sport is somewhat popular here, but the Matildas have over-achieved) 8.) Iceland (aren't supposed to be near as good as they are, with what they have. Top 15 now) 9.) New Zealand (see Australia above. NZ is starting to get results in major int'l tournaments) 10.) Thailand (ranked #29 in the women's game. they have no business being even that good) Germany hasn't over-achieved or under-achieved. They are a Top 3 nation in football fertility and popularity, in all of the world. They are doing what they're supposed to be doing in men's and women's football. Still kudos to them for taking care of business by meting (not exceeding) those lofty demands still for both genders. Despite all of that, they haven't over-achieved, or under-achieved, overall on the international stage, but they are the most consistent (and successful) for both genders combined.
Huh? Hold on. When did wining the Olympics combine to make you world champions 6 times.. hmmmm I wouldn't mid hearing this explained further LOL. The Japanese MNT are the reigning Asian champs, having beaten some of the sports best nations in the past few years too, as heaps of their young and senior stars now regularly find themselves moving from a very healthy domestic competition into Europe's top leagues. So are Japan really over achieving right now in the wake of all that.....? Canada should be #1 on this list, as their men remain way off even being the slightest bit relevant within concacaf
Oh, I wasn't saying that it's not. I was just saying traditionally people don't think of it (or any other form of dancing for that matter) as a sport, but I can understand and don't disagree with your point.