Things average Americans would say about soccer nowdays.

Discussion in 'Soccer in the USA' started by AguiluchoMerengue, Feb 1, 2012.

  1. morange92

    morange92 Member

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    well i actually think you can make the argument that a good center fielder in baseball could be comparable athletically to soccer players (you need to have a lot of range)

    I'd say speed in soccer is very important though. I mean do you think a guy like theo walcott would be anywhere near the epl if he was slow??

    on the flipside though, speed is an asset but isn't everything. If you have deficient technical ability and poor touch, you become a very limited player. I think a good US example would be robbie findley. The dude is really fast, but that dude couldn't score on the easiest of opportunities.

    It's kind of like in american football when you have a receiver who's really fast but has either poor hands, poor route running ability, or when he's running an option route lacks the ability to pick the correct route based on the coverage. Essentially the player gets relegated to nothing more than a deep threat at best.

    Same goes with the CB position, i mean ahmad carroll was really fast, and that dude was a horrible cornerback (im a packers fan so yeah i saw it first hand).

    WR Troy Williamson was as speedy as they come. But that dude couldn't catch a cold let alone a ball, and his route running was pretty terrible.


  2. AguiluchoMerengue

    AguiluchoMerengue Member

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    yes ^^^^^
  3. AguiluchoMerengue

    AguiluchoMerengue Member

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    Pique, I dont think I have ever seen a center back as fast as him, he is a boss.
  4. DCU1996

    DCU1996 Member

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    Especailly in the box, you got no time to waste at all. It's all about agility and quickness both for offense and defense close to/in the box. Is this news to any decent soccer fan?


  5. DCU1996

    DCU1996 Member

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    Yes exactly, actually speed is important for defense as well.
    Depends on the situation you push up the defense line.
    Sometimes centerback or wingback or D-mid have to make full explosive speed run toward the goal. Often half a step makes the big difference of goal or no goal.

    I play defensive mid, and often I have to make full speed run to cover the defense line. It's almost always half a step that make the difference.

    Speed is important and required for all the players. It only helps a lot with everything else equal. I'm surprised this is a news.



    Basically that's what I'm saying. Speed is important but not everything. Endurance is important but not everything. Agility/quickness is importnat, but not everytihng. Strenghth is importnat, but not everhthing, skill is important but not everything. You name it. Nothing is everything, but everything is required. It's the total package and balance. One particular physical advantage (being tall or big) won't affect much. That's what I love about football.
  6. HailtotheKing

    HailtotheKing Member+

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    A hockey rink/basketbal court is much more congested than a soccer pitch.

    How is your second sentence there NOT true for both basketball and hockey ?

    How are basketball and hockey not about time/space ?

    ..... not to my surprise, you're still very good at kicking yourself in the nuts in a discussion.

    In general, you are greatly overestimating the average speed of a soccer player. You're thinking of a few people and then have mistakenly carried over that speed to the average group. Not so much.

    Athleticism isn't an easily compared facet of sport. The athleticism in baseball doesn't surround the same mechanics as it does in soccer save for perhaps the comparison of hitting a baseball/striking a volley. The athleticism/skill that it takes to hit a baseball pitch at the professional (MLB) level is often described as the hardest thing to do in all of sports. Haven't quite hard anything about soccer described as such.

    Although, it would be nice if you had nothing more to say.

    In the box, positioning is more important than anything.

    ... decent soccer fan etc/etc
  7. DCU1996

    DCU1996 Member

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    Again, it's more congested in the penalty box.

    For the corner kick or close to the goal free kick, about 17-19 players cramped in the box. At that point, it's all about agility/quickness.

    Not as much overestimating the average speed of a basketball/baseball/a-football players.

    In the box, why don't you just say luck is more important than anything haha.

    Probably Americans came up with that.
    90% of the time seating on a bench and standing idle.
    Little better than golf I guess.
  8. HailtotheKing

    HailtotheKing Member+

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    [​IMG]

    I'll be nice and say congestion is equal at best. Of course, completely ignoring the fact that hockey players can also surround the goal entirely. We'll also ignore the fact that corners/near the box free kicks aren't the normal condition in soccer, whereas, congestion around the goal in hockey is much more common.

    ... if by that you mean positioning, then yes. Or, should I say 'marking' as you seem to understand only a few select words ?

    Which I'm not doing.

    Robert Adair ... a physicist ... provides some pretty remarkable numbers to back the claim: "Consider that a fastball thrown at 95-100 mph reaches home plate in about 0.4 seconds. Adair notes in his book that it takes 0.15 seconds for humans to voluntarily blink their eyes in response to visual signals. When a big-league fastball is on the way, you must do far more than just blink. You must swing the bat to precisely the right spot at precisely the right time."

    That doesn't even get into different types of pitches, you know ones that move and go fast.


    oh, you played golf before ?
  9. DCU1996

    DCU1996 Member

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    Congestion near or in the box including but not limited to corner kicks and free kicks is common happening.


    Positioning is first step. You still need agility/quicknses to make good positioning beating your opponents, then need more agility/quickness for the after actions in the tight space. I'm not sure you are trying to say. If you want to say it requires little bit of less agility/quicknes than hockey, go ahead. Big deal..


    Some were doing in comparison to soccer.
    That's why I replied.


    Not into golf or baseball. I'm sure it requires some strength and skill.
    Robert guy must be a baseball fan.
  10. HailtotheKing

    HailtotheKing Member+

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    I see the problem. You don't know what congestion means.

    Or positioning.


    I haven no idea what this is.

    It must be nice to live in your ignorant world. You're not into golf or baseball, which most likely means you know next to nothing about the sports because you haven't played them, don't follow them, and generally don't have an understanding of anything involved in them.

    Therefore, you can discuss and compare them with a sport you are into and do follow. That also leads you to be able to dismiss the actual scientific findings of a Yale Physicist.

    Even WhiteStar never got that bad.
  11. Rickdog

    Rickdog Member+

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    It`s not that simple. Never forget that soccer is not an individual game, but instead it is a "team" game.

    If it was up to only one man against one man, they would kick ass. But in a team game, where you depend on 10 other players, to have a slow, older dude who can`t keep the pace and rythm that the game forces everyone to take, is giving too much advantage to opposing sides (just think about what happens when your team gets a red card, how strategy must change in order to avoid a major dysaster). If any team can strategically play, one man down for a long period of time in any game, they could take the risk of using one of these dudes, knowing in advance that the rest of the team will have to multiply their effort in order to compensate the advantage they would be giving. Besides, when you get older, your capacity to recover gets slower and your capacity to recover from past injuries also gets diminished.

    When those guys were younger they could absorve easily in their bodies every push or kick they received and continued playing afterwards (and believe me bro, these guys received lots more "affection" taps by defenders, than regular players did, in their prime). Now if they were to play, after the first hard kick (an intelligent coach will sure send a player only to hit the guy, to compensate the lack of skill against them), they would get incapacitated for the rest of the game, and maybe even worse, for many games after the incident in question. The other issue is that it is very hard to accept when you are old, that you can`t play as you used to in your prime, so for them it is better to quit in the top of their glory, than to start making a sad spectacle of what you once were. In all sports, stars quit when they get old for the same reasons.

    Anyhow, some of these old players find other soccer related spaces where to keep on being useful for the game, some continue as coaches, sport officials, as reporters, some even get to play the game of their love and joy, with older guys as themselves or maybe at beach soccer or futsal (which isn`t as intense as pro association soccer), just for fun, where they keep on deliting crowds, with each one of their tricks as they did in the past. :cool:

    x2.....(which also requires a lot of skill to be in the right place, when required)
  12. JJxvi

    JJxvi Member

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    Baseball players, in general, are not slow. Basically if you've ever been to any kind of tryout or scouting combine, or anything like that the first thing they do is have you run, and in most cases they're scratching anybody who is slow. If you are an average runner, you better be able to rake with the bat. Pitchers are a different story, nobody cares how fast a pitcher runs.
  13. JJxvi

    JJxvi Member

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    The average professional baseball player runs a 60 yard dash at under 7 seconds, if that means anything to you. If you're well over that number (7.2-7.5+) unless you are a really well known power prospect, legacy player or something then most teams will eliminate you from their scouting pool immediately.
  14. AguiluchoMerengue

    AguiluchoMerengue Member

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    a bicycle kick is harder to do than hitting a baseball.
  15. Timon19

    Timon19 Member+

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    Horseshit.
  16. AguiluchoMerengue

    AguiluchoMerengue Member

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    just give up bro, they are not playing anymore because they are not physically capable of doing it at the level of young faster-stronger players and yes that is athletism,
  17. AguiluchoMerengue

    AguiluchoMerengue Member

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    actually, I dont think hitting the ball would be that hard, now, scoring a home run may be hard at that level.

    for instance, anybody can kick a free kick or anybody can do a bicycle or a volley but not everybody would score after hitting the ball.

    I think scoring a home run can be compared to scoring a free kick and I do think scoring a free kick would be harder.
  18. Timon19

    Timon19 Member+

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    You excel at moving goalposts.
  19. RichardL

    RichardL BigSoccer Supporter

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    off the ball movement isn't about speed. It's about anticipation. Sure, being quick helps, but it's not a requirement.

    Even in England, which is probably the worst nation for viewing pace as some kind of magic bullet, it's not a prerequisite. You can play fast without actually having to be fast. It just requires organisation.

    In the surface-skimming depth of analysis that passes for pundits' experitise over here, Reading's 2007 team was often praised for its pace. The truth is we didn't have a single quick attacking player. The off-the-ball movement was just good enough to make it unnecessary.


    Fast players are vital in the NFL because yardage is key. If a player can run a few extra yards before being stopped, it makes a huge difference. The same just isn't true for soccer.


    But if pace really is as important as you say, then why don't football clubs find sprinters and convert them to footballers? Why don't British sprinters play soccer instead of being sprinters.

    To paraphrase an earlier point, either you've spotted something that scouts and managers have failed to appreciate for 100 years, or pace isn't anywhere near as vital as it is in the NFL.
  20. RichardL

    RichardL BigSoccer Supporter

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    It is, but you seem to be arguing a point that nobody is making.

    Nobody is saying you can play without being athletic.

    People are saying you don't need to be exceptionally athletic.
  21. JJxvi

    JJxvi Member

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    There are many, many things in sports that are harder than hitting a baseball (something which I interpret usually as "getting a hit in baseball") but most of them aren't comparable in importance to their particular game as hitting is in baseball.

    I'm going to qualify the following with the fact that there are a ton of sports out there, and I have no doubt that some sports do have something harder.

    That said, hitting a baseball is THE VERY CORE of the sport. It is not comparable with scoring on a bycycle kick (which is more akin to something like turning an unassisted triple play after a diving catch on a line drive or something like that, a rare event where circumstances line up just right for you). Almost every single event on the diamond starts off with an attempt to hit the ball, its more analogous to simply passing to a teammate in soccer, and I dont think anyone can seriously argue that "kicking the ball" is harder than trying to "hit a pitched baseball". I'm not sure what the analogous event would be in football, running, or tackling I guess. In basketball, its shooting the basketball against the defense, or passing/dribbling. Hockey is probably something like skating or stick handling or passing.
  22. HailtotheKing

    HailtotheKing Member+

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    Absolutely not.

    Now, you do bring in something that could be used as comparison. However, it still falls short.

    Executing a bicycle kick is indeed, difficult. I'm not talking about the 'pop it up to yourself' type or high bounce off a deflection type. Let's go with an extreme example. Say, off a corner or free kick. The ball, as in baseball, is actually moving, with pace towards the player.

    Now the soccer player has to judge the pace and angle of the ball and then time his jump while putting the swing of his leg in the correct spot to strike the ball.

    Now ... make all of that decision making time 2 to 3 times faster, add in the fact that the batter in baseball doesn't know how the ball will be coming or at what speed (unlike the soccer player on a free/corner kick that will know the general spin/trajectory coming), and add an external element (the bat) which puts in another layer of visual/spacial awareness and control.

    Any questions ?

    I'd love to see the list.

    Also, getting a hit isn't all that easy either. The BEST players in the world only do it between 3 and 3 and a half times out of very ten. That doesn't take into account their swings and misses or the times they merely made contact, rather than actually hit the ball.
  23. Potowmack

    Potowmack Member+

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    In baseball, if you have a lifetime batting average of .300, you have a good shot at going into the hall of fame. Is there any other sport where the hall of famers fail at the most important aspect of the sport 70% of the time? (Though, I don't agree that hitting is the core of the game. Getting on base is).

    I think numbers like that strongly support the argument that hitting a baseball is one of the toughest parts of any sport.
  24. AguiluchoMerengue

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    scoring a goal out of free kick, side volley and a bycicle kick should be harder than scoring a homerun, heck just a volley should be harder.

    most americans dont have credibility when judging soccer for many reasons but the 2 most important are:

    1. most (you are in the minority here bro) americans hate soccer
    2. most americans dont dont know jack. sh##@ about the game

    when the scientist dude compared sports, of course he is comparing only those sports traditional in the american culture.

    his theory is not any different from jim clownme, at least the scientist dude did some research about the sport, jim rome is not an intelectual, he is not an athlete either, he is just like glen beck and rush limbaugh, dumb embarrasing americans :D

    in no way im saying hitting a baseball is easy or that scoring a homerun is easy, I work at baseball games, filming the games, I dont think is that hard to hit the ball.

    i may be biased as well but it doesnt seem to me that just hitting the ball would be that hard, now, scoring a homerun, that looks hard, dont think is harder than scoring a bycicle kick though or a side volley.

    :rolleyes:
  25. Vandervaart

    Vandervaart Member

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    Anyone who thinks that hitting a homerun is (technically) more difficult than scoring a goal with a bicycle kick is out of his mind. Just think about it, how many MLB players have hit a homerun (even adjusting for at bats)? I reckon a lot. Now compare with how many EPL, Serie A, etc, players have ever scored with a bicycle kick? It's not even close.

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