Re: Urawa Reds Controversy Thread What about the two sets of supporters trying to break the fence separating them or the Gamba supporter falling off the balcony and breaking his leg? Or Alex getting hit with a pole in Kashima?(!) Is that a common and expected occurrence in English football? The throwing of objects is common in many european leagues, at least it is pet bottles in Britain and not flares as in some other places. And to say any of that stuff is actually encouraged is, well, ridiculous. It seems that most of your info comes from hearsay or your own perceptions, since you don't cite any experiences you've actually had yourself, how many English matches have you actually been to? Edit: sorry for bringing this up again Goru but i felt the need to get my point across.
Re: Urawa Reds Controversy Thread You seriously want to go tit for tat over this? Name me a single firm in JLeague. How many Japanese have been arrested at recent World Cups? How many JLeague officials and players have received death threats? How many staff at the JLeague stadiums have died in the middle of fights? And no, I don't go to (or even watch) EPL. It's virtually impossible not to notice the headlines. The Alex thing was pretty terrible as I recall they did it several times and you'd expect them to at least give the perpetrators up. But considering that's as bad as it gets in Japan -- it pales in the face of mass arrests and rioting.
Re: Urawa Reds Controversy Thread Just saw this in the news... Arrest After Football Star Stabbed In Legs
Re: Urawa Reds Controversy Thread Tulio arguing with the refs again.... Nothing new [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzX6Ix-rD9Y"]YouTube - J-League?Sanfrecce Hiroshima?-?Urawa Reds?2-1[/ame]
Re: Urawa Reds Controversy Thread Yup, they probably lost seven games in a row because of the refs...
Re: Urawa Reds Controversy Thread I think the people posting in this thread should leave their bias behind. We need some actual level-headed discussion, instead of people berating a team purely because of their dislike for the club. If that can't happen, I don't see why this thread should stay open.
Re: Urawa Reds Controversy Thread BassOr, if all Reds fans would be like you this thread wouldn't have started at all, you're only "guilty" by association and I am sorry if you and some (few) other realistic Reds fans are hurt... But let's keep in mind that it is never personal, only soccer! BTW, Tulio did behave a bit like a moron, thus the comments...
Re: Urawa Reds Controversy Thread ehh, Tulio is hardly Urawas' biggest problem. He looked like one of the only players wearing red last night that could do anything. God only knows what Yamada, Tsuboi, Takahara were doing out there. Especially Takahara. He was all smiles on the bench despite losing by 2 goals... gets on the pitch and looks like he'd rather be back on the bench.
Re: Urawa Reds Controversy Thread Reds without Tulio would probably have a few points less, might even be struggling for J1 (Reds are 9 points only above 15th place). Every single chance/goal I can remember in the last two games was a header by Tulio. Sure, he has a short temper, but he delivers as well. I don't really mind a fiery, dedicated player to get above the lines sometimes, but the point is that the one(s) he should be upset with now is(are) not yesterday's ref. That is what I meant...
Re: Urawa Reds Controversy Thread He's one of the last few libero-style players left in the game... that would be one of the reasons he's got such a strong hold on his position, in the national team, and why he's so confident going forward (and why he scores so many goals, both at club and national level). It does leave the back exposed, though, when there isn't a tall, strong player to hold the place (and commonly, the area is then left with one defender), and it becomes heavily prone to counter attacks. As has been mentioned many times in the last few months, Tsuboi isn't really cutting it, anymore... and while I've said it quite a few times, it's why we need a new, experienced defender, and to find what we need, we'll probably have to look overseas. If we're going to keep Edmilson (very likely) and Ponte (hard to tell, at this point, but still looks likely for another year), it still leaves room for two foreign players - one of which being Asian. Supposedly, Gert Engels was looking at Sasa Ognenovski, from Adelaide United, who would have been likely to fit that role perfectly (though perhaps a little too similar to Tulio), but he's since gone to Seongnam, in Korea. We need to keep looking into that prospect. Nene, along with Washington, Ono, and the gang, was crucial to our success, and it's yet to be seriously addressed. Ideally, Abe would continue in the fullback role (and not taking the CB position, like recently), and Tsuboi, unless he finds his old form, makes appearances to fill in for injury or fatigue. Or we return to the old 3-5-2, and focus on versatile movement from the wings of the midfield (able to turn it into 5-3-2, 3-4-3, et al). With players like Haraguchi gaining important experience, that could be a possibility, in the next year or two. I'm really not quite sure what Finke's attempting to achieve, anymore, aside from building up the youth. I'm a little disappointed with the loss of Alex, much like Tulio was, and I hope he can see the further depth that is required. You may be able to win a game in the midfield, but you still need the strength of the other two thirds of the field, to really succeed. Still, it's good to see players like Hosogai getting good game time, and actually performing admirably. Hajime is one player I don't want to see leave - he will soon become an important part of team. EDIT: Sorry for the long post, everyone.
Re: Urawa Reds Controversy Thread (There's no limit to posts' length...) If I was a Reds' fans, my main concern would be with getting rid of Tsuboi (who could for example become very handy for a newly promoted team) and in particular to find two reliable strikers who interact well together. Takahara, also considering how much he gets paid, should be traded asap, while Escudero seems very promising. I agree that Hosogai is still very good, Abe too of course is above average, while Ponte's best days -sadly- seem over. Final chapter about Tulio. He really put on a show in the last 20 minutes, and I have no idea how he managed to finish the game... Only Japanese refs could tolerated the way him and Stojanov behaved. He is definitely a very, very good player, but having him in the team implies a certain "mood," and such nervous attitude is contagious and I believe it is one of the seeds that germinated into problems. Reds without Tulio...? Honestly, I believe that for example Mato and Lee Jung-soo did better than him this season... As a Reds manager, if the price was right and I could find a substitute, I would probably sell him, as it would be impossible imho to open a new cycle with him around... All in all, what is probably needed the most is some PATIENCE. BassOr seems to have it, but I wonder about Reds' fans in general...
Re: Urawa Reds Controversy Thread My point wasn't that the J-league is worse that the Epl in terms of crowd trouble, it was that crowd trouble unfortunately happens everywhere (even Japan) and the Epl and english football is not as bad as you described it (i.e. crowd violence is extremely rare in Epl games), name me the last incident of mass arrests and rioting in a Premiership match. Your views are clearly shaped by what you read on the internet and your own personal bias against english football. The fact you haven't even been to a game, pretty much says it all, unless you have experienced it for yourself, any comments you make regarding english football have no credence. And as for the footballer getting stabbed, people get stabbed every day, the only thing connecting that incident with football was the fact he happens to be a footballer as it happened nowhere near a stadium and no-where does it state that the incident was even football related. If a bus driver was stabbed would you relate it to the violence of the bus-driving industy The fact is you have made several offensive comments on English football (something along the lines of 'acting like a thug is encouraged') and English culture when by your own admission you don't watch the premiership and you haven't even been to a game. If you ever do go to a premiership match (which judging by your clear contempt for English footy i doubt you will), compare what you actually experience to the headlines you read.
Re: Urawa Reds Controversy Thread Scotch, one last (polite, please) reply, then we can move forward, please...
Re: Urawa Reds Controversy Thread what you describe there sounds more like hooligans, and luckily that is a dying art at most places in the world. Over the last 10 years there havent really been any known hooliganism in the EPL, but I guess England still have a bad reputation worldwide due to earlier incidents. In the last couple of major tournaments, the english fans have behaved quite well too, the last one where they made an upstir was France 1998 I think. but, we still hear stories of hooliganism further down in the divisions, with Mansfield as perhaps the worst of the lot. But its a problem that have gradually become smaller and smaller the last couple of years. Now, i havent been to that many matches in UK, but from the experiences I've had, there is a more "violent" and negative atmosphere in the stadium than what I have experienced anywhere in J.League. So I still think J.League is very innocent compared to the european leagues, but as some of you pointed out we've had a growing numbers of alarming incidents in japan lately, and that is something that needs to be taken seriously.
Re: Urawa Reds Controversy Thread Is it less offensive for you if I rephrase it that "English football culture is so far gone that throwing PET bottles is standard operating procedure" ?? To start off, I'd point out my original post makes no mention of EPL. You're the one trying to make this all about EPL because you know the prawn brigade and steep ticket prices have pushed all the casuals out. Moving on, an Aston Villa steward got caught in the middle of a fight and died in 2004. Hardly comparable to some guy who can't keep his balance falling from Gambas' goal-end? Chelski has been especially active, sending death threats to numerous players and even one referree who had to quit. If only we could do that for some JLeague refs As for the stabbing - maybe you missed the part where they only stabbed his legs? Don't think this requires Sherlock Holmes to figure out they were trying to end his career. Or 11 fans being arrested after "indecent chanting". Seems petty to me, but I can't see police arresting 11 people for nothing. Chelsea again made headlines as a fight broke out before the match in Rome. ManU also made headlines in Rome as 2 fans were accused of assaulting police. Keeping on the Chelski bit because they're too easy... Uefa charges Chelsea with improper conduct in Barcelona. Chelski fans clash with cops after losing to ManUre -- just back in May Re Basse: England caused a minor skirmish with some Germans in WC06 and incurred mass arrests. Given past incidents it was nothing big (mostly throwing lawn chairs IIRC), but they still cause problems everywhere they go.
Re: Urawa Reds Controversy Thread That was Anders Frisk. Chelsea fans threatened his family and even turned up in his home village in Sweden to stalk them. I've never forgiven Chelsea for that. I thought Tom Henning Ovrebo had a good game in the Champions League game btw, and that Chelsea were completely out of line there too. Incidentally, the FA is struggling against such a high turnover of amateur referees to even break-even every year. As many referees quit each year as they can pull in with their recruitment campaigns every year. On the other side of the coin, I've never witnessed anything approaching violence at Ipswich Town games, even the heated game against Sheff Utd when we came back from 0-2 down with 10 men to win 3-2 a few years ago. The atmosphere at MK Dons is also pretty tame, even with Mansfield visiting (since you mentioned them in particular).
Re: Urawa Reds Controversy Thread But your ORIGINAL point was that this behavior is standard procedure in England which it is not and that it is encouraged, which it is not. Your shift to the 'prawn sandwich brigade' pushing fans out has nothing to do with the argument and clearly shows that you are trying to change the subject. You have shown no proof that a) the behavior is widespread and b) that it is encouraged. Just a load of isolated incidents, of which i could find of any country in Europe or South America. Every single problem you mention is not unique to England and exists to a far worse extent in places like Italy etc. My mention of the J-league was not to compare it to England but to show that these problems are not unique to England. If throwing PET bottles was standard procedure in England they would be raining from the stands. Oh and it turns out the player was stabbed by his sister's boyfriend i.e. it was a family dispute. hmm...still, it was a football player who was involved, and he was English! so lets chalk that one up to the violence of English football too! This will be the last time I post on this subject (don't worry Goru) so I'll just add one more thing: If, based on internet articles and hearsay, along with my own private prejudices, I said something along the lines of "Acting like an a$$ is accepted and encouraged in football in -insert country here-" or "they cause problems everywhere they go" or other stupid generalizations, without having ever been to a game in my life or having ever been to the country, I would have the intelligence to know that a) it would offend someone from there and b) my comments would be baseless as i have never actually experienced football in said country myself. But then, personal bias doesn't require logical thought.
Re: Urawa Reds Controversy Thread 1. I'm not trying to change the subject. You're the one that kept bringing up EPL EPL EPL when I said nothing about EPL. I was speaking of English football in general. Stop trying to say I was talking about EPL specifically. 2. Yes, I exaggerate at times to get points across or being sarcastic. The point stays the same: it's all too normal in England. 3. I think I've shown plenty that the behavior is widespread. How ironic is this phrase: "a load of isolated incidents" Clearly they're not so isolated. 4. Other countries in Europe and SA have nothing to do with this. I never made a comparison between England and Europe or SA -- I made a comparison between England and Japan. Stop trying to change the subject. 5. The facts of the case weren't out when I saw the headline -- so yes, I included it. Doesn't detract from the multiple death threats, etc., etc., etc. 6. If you're offended because somebody points out how low a reputation your country has -- maybe instead of snowballing that person you should fix the reputation. 7. We're not going to agree, so I'll leave it here as well. But I have no regrets making that statement and I stand by it.
Re: Urawa Reds Controversy Thread OK, I REALLY need to draw the line HERE. If you want to continue the discussion is OK, but please then start a new thread titled something like "Japanese Hooligans vs British Hooligans." Please, please, please... And don't worry, Shuvy will move there the relevant posts
Re: Urawa Reds Controversy Thread http://www.goal.com/en/news/1275/ea...tball-boss-blast-urawa-coach-volker-finke-for Don't know if this is true or not, but if it is...
Re: Urawa Reds Controversy Thread The full quote: If he was "fouled" then surely it wouldn't matter if he went down or not to get the penalty? Is he suggesting that referees are so inept that they will only award a foul if it results in a player actually falling over? Bit of a weird quote all round.
Re: Urawa Reds Controversy Thread Yeah i agree we should draw the line, but i have to post this link regarding yesterday's match between Millwall and West Ham United. http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2009/aug/25/trouble-reported-west-ham-millwall When i look at the examples Scotch posted, actually there have been more recent situations lately than I first thought.