Re: Urawa Reds Controversy Thread Re: Tsuboi Now, how do you judge his season, so far? better than last year but a bit unlucky with injuries so far Is he one of Japan's best defenders? maybe not but still a very important player for us Will he stay at Urawa Reds next season? I do hope so I really don't understand all these REDS bashers. We have the best supporters and booing players from other teams is definitely okay. It happens all over the world, in all football stadiums and quite often Reds players are also booed at. Just happened last sunday for example at Misono when Shimizu Supporters booed Alex when he was introduced. Also I remember Antlers Supporters at Misono in 2008, holding up a big banner: "******** Reds" written on it. Or also in 2008 Gamba Supporters were the ones who started the trouble at Misono when they start throwing pet bottlers towards us and hitting two Kids. So all you REDS haters, look at your own supporters behaviour before criticising us. Or maybe it's just pure envy???
Re: Urawa Reds Controversy Thread And it's precisely statements like that which prompt contempt for Reds fans. Urawa have the most fans, but the best? Don't make me laugh. Yep, S-Pulse fans booed Alex's name when it announced, and a lot of us also booed Takahara's name (both players with a long and obvious history with us), but that's not the type of booing Reds are criticised for, and you know it. People are sick of the way Urawa mindlessly boo all away players during the game. Far from being "the best fans" they stop cheering for their own team entirely for long periods. And your point is? There are problems all over the J. League with certain wannabe hooligan fans, and noone is claiming otherwise. You only have to look on another thread to see FC Tokyo fans being pulled up on their behaviour recently. And there you go again in cloud cuckoo land. That large sections of your fans are so intensely dislikable has created the general feeling of ill will for Reds. People are probably envious of Kashima, strolling onto their seventh league title and third in a row. And they maybe wish their team had won as much as Asian champs Gamba Osaka have over the last three years, but there's very little to be envious of what's going on in Saitama.
Re: Urawa Reds Controversy Thread Obviously YOU didn't see our epic 0-0 battle versus Albirex-talk about excitement! WOW!
Re: Urawa Reds Controversy Thread I guess that answers my question. Just to make it clear in case you didn't figure it out yet, but both Gamba and Kashima are more successful than Urawa.
Re: Urawa Reds Controversy Thread Tulio adds more fuel to the fire. http://sports.yahoo.com/sow/news?slug=reu-japantulio&prov=reuters&type=lgns
Re: Urawa Reds Controversy Thread He was talking about the supporters, not the team performances. And are you sure Gamba are more successful? The trophy cabinets say otherwise. And Kashima won't be able to match Urawa and Gamba's international records until 2010, at least. And you already said quite a lot, in the previous discussion, that would be considered as crossing the line, by most. Don't push it further. It seems like you're just trying to start an argument.
Re: Urawa Reds Controversy Thread Utterly meaningless logic. I could argue that Urawa or Gamba wouldn't be able to match Kashima's domestic record until 2014 - and that's only if either won the next five league titles in row - but what would that prove? Sod all, that's what. And if you're going to bring trophy cabinets into it, then you better give some respect to Marinos, Jubilo (spit), and Verdy - all are more successful clubs than Reds.
Re: Urawa Reds Controversy Thread Why is Tulio crying again? God the best thing Urawa could do as a franchise is give their young guys playing time-Maybe they don't win this year but they set a foundation to compete for the next decade* They tried buying a title the last couple of years and the chemistry was so toxic that it didn't work* Am I completely off Urawa fans or do you agree with the Finke plan? The one thing that I am envious of is the fact that Urawa has a very solid youth program and they produce good pro prospects-Between them and Kashiwa, we've had a real battle to get a foothold in Saitama
Re: Urawa Reds Controversy Thread Tulio has the Yomiuri mentality, if you know what I mean.... But I think most people agrees that you have to have solid youth system for club to do well in J. League.
Re: Urawa Reds Controversy Thread ... I don't see how it's utterly meaningless. Success in sport is measured by the amount of victories/titles you have earned. Everyone will struggle to meet the domestic success that Kashima have achieved. If you want another way to measure, Urawa is still above Gamba, on the league table. Even after three losses. I agree with Finke's plan for the club; I liked a lot of what was written. Personally, I wouldn't do everything exactly the same, but I like what he's doing in bringing up the youth players, and helping to develop some rising stars. There may be a new Mr. Reds in there, who'll stay with the club for his whole career, and excell. I understand Tulio being frustrated with the club selling Alex - I am seriously disappointed in that, too. I'm perhaps not too surprised that it led him to criticise the club, though I don't think he should be angry at the youth development. If anything, he and Alex should be there to help mentor the kids (along with the other older players), and see the addition of younger players as a way of maintaining the club's future stability (and adding another dynamic touch to the squad tactics). I don't think Finke should entirely rule out foreign players (European or otherwise), though. There are some young, untapped gems that would be more than willing to make the move to Japan.
Re: Urawa Reds Controversy Thread You really don't get it. It's not so much about success it's about devotion. In Germany Bayern is the most successful team but the most passionate fans have Borussia Dortmund or Schalke. I don't want to support a heartless team with lots of trophies. Luck at the pathetic teams of Gamba or Antlers. They can not even manage to fill their so small stadiums with their supporters. They must rely on us REDS Supporters to fill their stadium. Even if REDS would play in J 2 they would have the most supporters.
Re: Urawa Reds Controversy Thread J-League without Urawa Reds is like BJ league (japanese basketball league) that nobody cares about. I hate to say this but it's true.
Re: Urawa Reds Controversy Thread Was tested in 2000, when Urawa played one season in J2. During that time Reds had an higher attendance at their games (which played in the small Komaba stadium) than all other J1 Teams.
Re: Urawa Reds Controversy Thread Let's test it again! In all seriousness, you'd probably stay top 5 in attendance but you could expect a drop between 35 to 67 percent of your attendance (that happens with all teams that drop-not saying it's specific to you) In 2000 your fans never tasted success so the expectations were less, I think you have a good core but you also have a big chunk of free riders who will latch onto FC Tokyo or the next other big thing until you regained your footing
Re: Urawa Reds Controversy Thread This comment just shows that you don't understand anything about football and their supporters. Maybe there are some "free riders" but not more than 10%. Also if REDS would play in J2 the attendance record for all other J League teams would fall sharply, especially in the Kanto Region. For most Teams it's their only chance to fill their stadiums when we come for a visit. Including you pathetic team Omiya.
Re: Urawa Reds Controversy Thread According to Shukan Soccer Magazine Urawa-average attendance 2008 49,945 average attendance 2009 44,545 They are at-----wait for it------89% of what they were last year or -11% Some teams would fall, including us but others would probably pick up fans who don't want to pay to watch second division clubs Every team takes a hit when they drop to J2, probably because alot of their top talent jumps ship I do know math and I also know how to read Guess you ought to go back to making making more squirrels in trashcan posters, huh!
Re: Urawa Reds Controversy Thread Reds in J2... why do you torture me with these impossible dreams... Reds DO have a huge fandom, and some of them are really cool supporters. Still, those who MOO I'd pass happily to baseball (or any other sport), and there definitely are free-riders, understandably. What I'd like to point out about Reds' fans was their silence when they were losing in Yokohama. Of course I do understand them, that was probably the day they realized the title was gone; however, it is in stark contrast with most (all??) other Japanese fans who keep chanting even wen they got scored the third goal and their team sucks... (Seen in Yokohama, again, just four days ago...) Bottom line: Reds Fans Quantity = excellent Reds Fans Quality = could be better without wanna be-hooligans and "I support the (used to be) winning team" dudes.
Re: Urawa Reds Controversy Thread One more thing According to Shukan Soccer Digest 2009 player file Urawa Reds 1999 Stage 1 attendance 21,537 1999 Stage 2 attendance 20,979 2000 J2 attendance 16,922 So you lost about 20 percent of your fans the last time you dropped
Re: Urawa Reds Controversy Thread Kashima was higher by about a 1000 Teams like Sendai and Consadole in J2 were only about a 1000 or 2000 fans behind Urawa
Re: Urawa Reds Controversy Thread That is absolutely priceless - not wanting to support a team with a lot of trophies... Seriously, do keep them coming! Gamba and Kashima fans are as passionate as Reds. I could mention ten other teams who are too, who, despite their fewer numbers easily match the colour and spirit Reds display on the road. None of these stop supporting their own team for minutes on end to boo opponants, either. And don't talk to me about devotion. Last Sunday against S-Pulse Reds were only 1-0 down with five minutes still to go, but hundreds, and I do mean HUNDREDS, of Reds fans were silently filing out the exits. By the time the whistle finally went there were long strips of empty seats all round. A large core of 25000ish passionate fans, and 15000 who would (and probably will) find something better to do if the trophyless years continue much longer. No they didn't. They were eclipsed by Kashima Antlers in 2000. They were also second in supporter numbers to Albirex Niigata in 2003 (when Reds were in J1 and Niigata in J2), 2004 and 2005. It was only in 2006 that Urawa's average crowd suddenly jumped over Alibirex's - the same year they won the title. Funny that! Do keep up your frenzied "Reds fans are amazing / best in the world / not fairweather at all" rantings - they're so much fun to tear to pieces.
Re: Urawa Reds Controversy Thread Apologies if I came over rude before. Long day at work! I also didn't articulate what I meant very well at all. Of course, titles earned gauge success, but I meant in the context of the discussion on this thread your point made (to me) little sense. That Urawa and G. Osaka have won the ACL, a competition the Antlers (rightly or wrongly) seemed to have little interest in until this year pales in significance when you look at the bigger picture. Six league titles and six dometic cups dwarf any one-off international cup titles teams may have won. Bringing up Urawa and Gamba's ACL titles as if to suggest they've achieved something noone else has is also amazingly short sighted and, as tends to be the case with Reds fans, extremely 2005+ centric. Jubilo made three consecutive ACL (in it's former incarnation) final appearances in 1998-99, 1999-2000, 2000-01, winning one of them. This was when Gamba and Urawa were either scrapping around in the lower midtable or getting relegated. Even now neither Reds or Gamba look anything like equaling that record any time soon. In terms of successful teams in the J. League, Gamba and Reds both come way down the list.
Re: Urawa Reds Controversy Thread I honestly believe that winning the ACL is easier than winning a J1 title; even thou Antlers fans probably disagree...