Hi, I don't know if any of you are familiar with the site whoscored.com, if not it's a website that tracks every imaginable stat of every football game in the Premier League, La Liga, Serie A, Ligue 1, Bundesliga and CHampions League. In each game, every player is given a composite grade. The beauty of it, it is absolutely objective, it's not what your eyes tell you, it's only what the stats tell you (stats go from key passes, succesfull crosses, goals, tackles, dribbles, one on ones, clearances ... etc, a lot of them). Last year ranking was: 1 - Lionel Messi 2 - Cristiano Ronaldo 3 - Zlatan Ibrahiovic 4 - Andrea Pirlo 5 - Marco Reus 6 - Nene 7 - Eden Hazard 8 - Robin Van Persie 9 - Wayne Rooney 10 - Xavi As you can see, stats usually agree with you, even though Pirlo is stunningly absent from most of your Top 5. Nene only played in Ligue 1, and he has struggled this year, while Hazard and Reus aren't as high profile as Rooney or Xavi yet, but will soon be. This season, until now, the ranking is: 1 - Lionel Messi (already) 2 - Franck Ribery 3 - Andrea Pirlo 4 - Cristiano Ronaldo 5 - Andrea Ranocchia 6 - Thomas Müller 7 - Hernanes 8 - Zlatan Ibrahimovic 9 - Santi Cazorla 10 - Walter Samuel For the calendar year (Ratings out of 10)(Cumulative ratings from Premier League, La Liga, Serie A, Bundesliga, Ligue 1, Champions League and Euro): 1 - Lionel Messi : 8.89 2 - Cristiano Ronaldo : 8.08 3 - Andrea Pirlo : 8.08 4 - Zlatan Ibrahimovic : 7.90 5 - Eden Hazard : 7.89 6 - Franck Ribery : 7.73 7 - Giorgio Chiellini : 7.63 8 - Arturo Vidal : 7.62 9 - Marco Reus : 7.60 10 - Robin Van Persie : 7.58 11 - Santi Cazorla : 7.54 12 - Wayne Rooney : 7.54 13 - Sebastian Giovinco : 7.51 14 - Xavi : 7.47 15 - Mesut Özil : 7.47 16 - Stefan Kiessling : 7.42 17 - Mario Mandzukic : 7.41 18 - Arjen Robbern : 7.40 19 - Xabi Alonso : 7.39 20 - Toni Kroos : 7.37 Huntelaar, Lewandowski and Falcao are all in the Top 30, great scorers, but not much else, although Falcao really is a machine and is somewhat underrated. A little food for thought : 1 - Despite his amazing Euro, most fans underrate the rebirth Andrea Pirlo is having, he has been absolutely sensational, he has the most touches and key passes (passes that lead to a scoring chance) per game in all Europe this year, his passing has been markedly better than even Xavi and Ozil this year. 2 - If it's even possible, most fans UNDERRATE Messi. A large majority considers that he and Ronaldo are close, and they definitely are in the goalscoring rankings, but Messi, FOOTBALLwise, is in a league of his own as you can see. Whoscored ratings exist since the 2009-2010 season, and Messi has had a huge advantage every season, Ronaldo still being 2nd every season. 3 - You guys have no love for defenders ! Giorgio Chiellini and Thiago Silva have been amazing for a long time now, they both are pure class, and I'm pretty sure they'll be remembered as greats when all is said and done. Vidic, Samuel, Pique, are a little behind, but still excellent. As you can see, Andrea Ranocchia, who promised so much in Bari, is starting to assert himself and has been nothing short of brillant this season. 4 - Ribery doesn't get much love but he was sensational last season, Bayern riding the Rib-Rob duo to the Champions League final. 5 - Arturo Vidal is the most underrated player in all of football. You'll absolutely never hear his name when speaking of the current bests, yet he has been fantastic. Pirlo has been the mind of Juve, Vidal the engine. He has started even better this year. 6 - Goalkeepers are the only position clearly disadvantages by the ratings. Marc-Andre Ter Stegen was last year's best. He shouldn't stay at Gladbach for long.
Stats are interesting, but numbers are not absolute and don't take into account i.e. Messi going missing in big games last season. In all essence a p$## poor performance against Chelsea and a Bayer whooping cancel each other out, basically making his bad performances in key games dissappear. Not to mention that Messi benefits statwise from the Barcelona system itself (more passes, most accuracy as they are mostly short range, focus on shooting from within the area). Basically CR7 lowers his stats by truely irrelevant issues like shooting at goal from audacious positions, a focus on long passes (which are always less accurate) and not being part of a team where CR7 exchanges a lot of passes. All this makes Messi illusory better than CR7. At first sight the stats may be right, but just use your grey cells and the inherent flaws of stat-based analysis become ridiculously apparent.
Well I completely disagree with you. In this case I just think it underlines the gap between the two. Messi going missing in big games ? What about Ronaldo against Munich ? Messi is a better passer, a better dribbler, and he creates more chances for his teammates. While I agree that he benefits from the Barca system, he is also at the center of everything. The gap is huge, and a gap that huge translates the difference of efficiency between the two players, which the stats are all about, exactly like the advanced stats in basketball. Maybe you don't like it, and maybe your eyes tell a different story, but you can't deny Messi is just a more efficient player than Ronaldo. Your example about Ronaldo attempting more difficult shots only underlines this. Attempting difficult shots from tough angles leads to less goals than dribbling past defenders and shooting from the box, as such it's better to shoot from the box than to waste possessions. Ronaldo is extremely unefficient from free kicks also, yet shoots a ton of them. Now, I don't say Ronaldo is a poor player, he's fantastic, but Messi is from another planet. I also watch and appreciate games with my eyes and don't think I lack grey cells at all, thank you for that, I just threw the stat, as stated above, as food for thought, and Messi > Ronaldo is only one of my points.
I would not put Robben in the top 10 right now. He was top ten, but recently he has barely played. When he has, he has been definitely worse than the great form he had in 2009-2010 when he carried Bayern to the CL final. Hopefully he can stay healthy for a while to allow himself to get back to his old level.
1. Messi - No argument here i think, would love to see him move to another club and see how he adjust but for now he is doing great for country as well. 2. Cronaldo - Has proven himself in two leagues and two different big clubs something he has over messi. But cant put him ahead of messi because stats favor messi when everything else is similar go with stats. 3. Neymar - Only 20yrs old but already closing in on the top two and should close the gap and maybe surpass them by 2014. The best player on the historically best team in history, that alone should put him on top. 4. Falcao - Has dominated everywhere he has been porto, atletico, colombia and is only getting better. Different type of player than the first three in that he is more of pure 9 but can do other things as well is not just a poacher. 5. Zlatan Ibrahimovic - He could be higher on the list but his attitude and antics makes a lot of people hate him. But has played in big clubs and dominated in all of them in different leagues in different countries. Makes a sorry Sweden team relevant all on his own. []__[]
He was good but not decisive, and he misplayed and missed some chances, when he could have qualified his team. I do think Messi is superior to Ronaldo, but I'm not a blind Messi supporter. I, as everyone, would love to see him be as good with Argentina, and would love to see him one day in another club. But Ronaldo isn't the most clutch player in the world neither, Portugal has always struggled in international competitions qualifications since he's been their leader, and his scoring record with Portugal is poor to say the least. I just don't think your arguments are good enough, and I think you are just blind to the facts I underlined earlier, and the stats confirm what most football fans see with their own eyes. Now the problem with this feud is it makes me sound like I think Ronaldo sucks. I don't, I'm sure he'll be remembered as one of the all-time greats, but when all is said and done, Messi's reputation will be deservedly greater. Now, what do you think of the other points I've made? What about Pirlo ? Ranocchia? Vidal ? Hazard ? Let's call the Ronaldo - Messi argument a draw, and no doubt it's pretty useless too, as it's obvious we won't come to an agreement.
Do you know where Whoscored has the full overview of the calender year or past season? Btw, there is no way that Chiellini will be remembered as a legend! He is already 28 years old and was for a long time behind real legendary names as Cannavaro and Nesta for Italian team. It will depend on what he shows with his Italian national team (wasn't great at euro 2012) or with his club in Europe. League performances alone are not sufficient and remember too that Italian league has declined. Thiago Silva has a chance to become a legend. That will depend on what Brazil does in 2014. So far he had a good career in Brazil (but without earning caps) and three good years at Milan.
1. Messi 2. CR7 3. Neymar 4. Falcao 5. Iniesta At the rate Messi is going, he can become the best ever although I think it is premature to give him that title now. I used to think it was laughable to compare him to Pele and Maradona, but his performances over the past couple of years have shut me up. He is the best! No one can touch him right now. CR7 is a great player and has stepped up his game, but unfortunately, Messi did not remain idle. As for Neymar, I agree with Valdano that he is the most innovative player around. I hope he goes to Europe to play against the very best and make believers out of the skeptics. I place ahead of Falcao mainly because he is a lot more versatile on the field. Falcao is a beast! I had no idea this guy was so good! I knew he was a great striker, but I did not know he had such sick skills! If anyone places him ahead of Neymar right now, I won't be upset. Iniesta is a great architect in the midfield. He is definitely in the top 5 this year.
I said he'll be remembered as great, not a legend, and I agree with you, it will require a fantastic end of career for him to be remembered a Legend. He spent too much time at Juve when they weren't playing the Champions League, and was a member of poor Italian teams, still he's been the best Serie A defender for the last 4 years, and that includes Thiago Silva,which is an amazing accomplishment. He has also always been extremely reliable with Italy, but has failed to shine when it matters. I feel he's extremely underrated. Unfortunately for him he was injured at the Euro, and there's no doubt he'll need a great performance à la Cannavaro in an International Tournament to be at their level. He's a fantastic defender, but he's nowhere near as good as Nesta with the ball for sure.
I wouldn't classify Iniesta as an architect. He's a creator, and he's able to perforate any defense with his fantastic dribbling and passing skills, but Barca and Spain's rhythm and structure of play are all Xavi. Still no one but me rating Pirlo in the Top 5, it's crazy I think.
He is definitely in my TOP10 best of 2012 (include Euro12 and good juve season) but not TOP5 Agree Iniesta is more of a forward who could create space, making passes to other but not really a playmaker type. Sometimes people confuse with the reciprocal theory: a playmaker is to control rythm and create space/chances for the team, but a player who can create space/chances ain't not necessary a playmaker. As rule of thumb, all forwards/attackers gotta either score goals or making chances !
Current Best Team: ..................Messi Ronaldo...................Ozil .........Iniesta.....Xavi .............Y. Toure Alba...T.Silva...Cheillini...S.Ramos ..................Casillas Subs: Hazard Joe Hart Falcao Alexis Sanchez-- has been slightly off form but still one of the best talents around and difficult to defend Nasri-- often overlooked and not always consistent, but on his day is very dangerous and breaks defenses down Modric-- also underrated, does the simple things well, his game would flourish if paired with a classical defensive midfielder Gareth Bale Ibrahimovic Ribery David Silva/ Juan Mata
Current best team 2012/2013 --- Neymar - CR7 - Messi --- --- Iniesta ------- Ozil --- ------------- Xavi ------------ Marcelo - Pique - T.Silva - D.Alves ----------- Casillas -------------- Attack - Neymar/Messi the best dribblers in the world, with CR7 being in the middle CF/ST since hes complete, strong, fast and dangerous around goal. Midfield - Iniesta/Ozil/Xavi will control midfield with ball possesion... Iniesta/Ozil as attacking mids and Xavi as central mid. Defence - Marcelo/D.Alves both fast running up and down the flanks with the two best centre backs pique and t.silva. GK - Casillas best goalkeeper in the world.
in such an attacking team you put I would put Yaya Tourre in place of Xavi, or even Xabi Alonso shall be better there
I think mine is better: Casillas D Alves-T Silva-Pique Busquets-Pirlo-Iniesta-Messi C Ronaldo-R Falcao-Aguero
Currently... top 5 attackers (7s, 9s, 10s, 11s, false 9s) 1. messi 2. ronaldo 3. falcao 4. iniesta 5. ibra van persie barely misses out neymar will be in there within the next two years. i also think christian eriksen will become a top 5 in this category top 5 midfielders (8s, 6s) 1. xavi 2. alonso 3. toure 4. pirlo 5. khedira busquets barely misses out top 5 fullbacks/wing-backs (2s, 5s) 1. ramos 2. marcelo 3. alba 4. cole 5. lichsteiner dani alves barely misses out top 5 centre-halves (3s, 4s) 1. puyol (when healthy) 2. pique 3. tiago silva 4. vidic (when healthy) 5. kompany hummels barely misses out top 5 goalkeepers 1. casillas 2. buffon 3. neuer 4. hart 5. cech
Good selection general, however I would NOT put Iniesta in top5 best attackers ... as he is so inefficient there ... He is more like a "space makers" for the team rather than a "true Attackers" with goals and assists! Replace with either Neymar if not qualified then cpmes Van Persie For me Yaya Tourre is the best in MF right now, followed by Pirlo and then Xavi (dropped form by age) CB: Vidic , Puyol is no longer among the bests ... replace with Chienlini and Pepe FB: well Dani Alves is easily the best FB right now! A Cole is no longer worldclass sorry. Lischstener is not yet up there (good potential) so you missed out D Alves, P.Lahm,