Separate names with a comma.
Discussion in 'Referee' started by briansnat, Jun 10, 2012.
Not just teenagers. I pointed out above how this helps me out.
Was the card system not created due to language barriers, or is that just an urban legend?
If so, there are really no good reasons not to apply them to coaches.
Well, the ball being in touch when it fully crosses the line as opposed to when it touches the line is equally arbitrary, but that's the Law.
If you want to lead the charge for changing the Laws to allow cards to be shown to team officials, you have my full support. In the mean time, showing cards to coaches hurts the referee because it demonstrates that he doesn't know the Laws.
Great, so this modification of the Laws (showing cards to coaches) is already incorporated in the rules of many youth leagues, tournaments, and High School associations. The first thing you can do to give it your "full support" is avoid bad-mouthing the practice, when used in a competition which allows it. Referees have some influence over league officials who draft rules of competition.
I realize it's generally best to minimize modifications to the Laws. It would be silly, for example, to have a youth tournament where the ball was considered "out" as soon as it touched a boundary line. However, some differences between local youth play and the World Cup make sense. I think it's a fine idea to show cards to loud-mouth youth coaches, especially when the ref is a kid or has weak man management skills. Cards for team officials would not be appropriate in international adult matches with FIFA referees, and thus, the Laws need not ever allow them.
My point is simple. the "mean time' is already here is some places or leagues. In those places, it is a good thing.
Second, in response to MassRef's original question: If a coach wants to see a red card after I have dismissed him before he will walk away, then I would show it to him. Big deal. He is already dismissed.
(It would make a funny report: After being dismissed, Coach Smith was reluctant to leave the immediate area. At one point, he wanted to check my equipment. He asked to see my Red Card, so I showed it to him. Shortly after that, Coach Smith went to the parking lot. The game continued with Asst. Coach Jones on the sideline.)
I'm not "bad-mouthing" the practice, I'm saying it's wrong to show a coach a card unless required to do so by the rules of the competition. It's a bad idea in competitions that allow it but do not require it. It gives the impression that the referee does not know the Laws. I am firmly against competitions requiring or allowing cards to be shown to team officials when the Laws do not allow it.
Showing a card to a coach does not somehow improve man management skills. It doesn't cause an "adult" coach to stop abusing a youth referee. It's not going to make the game any better. It will in fact make the game go worse with those people who know that it is an error in Law.
I umpired baseball for years. I never once had a manager stop arguing because I gave the ejection signal. I've refereed high school soccer for years. I've never once seen a coach stop arguing because because a card was shown.
One of the leagues in western MA uses another card (blue, maybe?) for coaches and spectators. If the blue card comes out then match is abandoned and the team does not play again until after a disciplinary hearing.
You know how you can sometimes use a blade screwdriver to remove a Phillips-head screw? That's how I view using a card to remove a coach. It ain't right, but it works.
1. This is dead wrong, in my admittedly limited experience. The two times I showed a coach a yellow in a youth USSF game, the complaining dropped precipitously. Plastic is a much better communication tool than a new ref's man management skills.
2. If the game is a low enough level that it's being reffed by a teenager, no one at the game is going to know that showing a card is an error in law.
No, no need to skirt the rules and flashing plastic. And ja, do not bite on that latter one, at least in matches within the [FIFA] Laws, unless specified within "modifications."
It is most likely a setup, a finesse move by the coach - first the continued argy-bargy about "do not know the rules," then using psychological warfare to undermine your confidence and authority. Whatever the motivation of the referee to avoid further escalation, the plastic is shown. Just to please the coach and fulfill wishes? An appeal to the league to rescind, and more inquiries from the assignor and perhaps a dressing down from the professionalism chair. An appropriate response would, we do not show coach a red card, we just tell them where to go (or words to this effect), and then exercise the option you suggest - wait it out. This way the referee keeps his/her stripes.
If I must guess about the line of attack used by that coach, I would say, s/he is not particularly aware of their role in that game, and/or has forgotten what by wearing the team jersey/jacket they are representing not only that players on that team, but also other players in the club, fellow coaches, and their club supporters and followers. None of which is the referee's duty to remind him/her.
Ahh, what a concidence! I had looked up club bios for the next season, just to get a feel about what coach is where, done what and other stuff, and bing! - there is one set of team officials with the same surnames as you gave, Smith and Jones. May I use your "report" paragraph when needed?
Okay, out with these two nm scenarios now MassRef. You are keeping us hanging; inquiring minds want to learn from your situations.
Another pragmatic thing to do, after giving the ultimatum, is to let the coach have his/her last words in, for his/her own sake. This saves face for him/her in front of his team, and does not affect anything else, except to write up the few words s/he 'vented' in the match report.
Neither was "mine." But things I've observed at tournaments.
One was simple enough and maybe not a "nightmare." But it involved the scenario laid out above, where the referee trusted the field marshal to escort a coach away from the field in the first half of a match. Sure enough, the same coach was verbally abusing the junior AR in the second half, because the field marshal let the ejected coach stay "on the other side because he promised he would stay quiet." Game had to be held up again in the second half.
The other one was a nightmare and occurred at Regionals. The referee team didn't bring their bags to the field, which is normal. But for whatever reason, referee and team didn't want to carry the pass cards in any of their pockets. So... the referee enlisted a field marshal to hold the passcards during the game. Sounds like a simple enough task and a logical alternative. Except for when you send off a player and a coach but the field marshal returns the passcards to the team before you retrieve them yourself. Try walking back into the referee tent, telling the referee committee you had two send offs, but that you don't have the passcards but it was someone else's fault.
I am guessing that about 99% of those present at any soccer match have no idea what the Laws have to say about showing cards to team officials. I would never show a card to a coach, but have no problem with anyone doing so.
As a state administrator, I have to have a problem with it.
As a young referee, I too am guilty of overly enforcing bad throws. Why do we do it? From what I've observed in my leagues, we do it because A. Yes we want to try and feel in charge because for several months after starting we have no command presence whatsoever and B. In a game under a certain age level, there's simply nothing else to call. The fouls are minimal because they're only due to clumsiness. there's no misconduct whatsoever (half these kids are still trying to understand the concept of what a referee even does let alone how to dissent to them), and most violations are excluded at that level or result in a redo. We start offside in my area at U10 for girs and U09 for boys, but coaches here are so intense here (offside traps at U13 anyone?) that most kids are pretty well versed in Law 11 and forwards avoid the offside line like the plague, so that is rarely called. That leaves nothing else to call except measly throw-in violations.
You are also right about players getting used to the whistle. I once did an unsanctioned town tournament (3v3) that anyone could enter. As the youngest ref there, I was exclusively given U09 games on youth day from the round robins to the finals (the first day I had whatever was on my field. I'm 16 and did adult mens' games. Very scary…). One team I had was made up of kids from a very lenient rec league (I don't even think they have real referees). They were so not used to the game that basic laws needed to be explained. The funniest story? On that same game, at the half, I blew two loud blasts; one long, one medium. I had to then resort to about six short beeps when the layers continued playing like nothing happened. This was with a fox 40 classic on a small sided field. The same thing happened for fouls or sub stops about 5 more time in the second half.
Field marshals are good for nothing. I did an unsanctioned 3v3 tournament for a small town. The field marshals (who the assignor affectionately called 'tennis balls' due to their shirts) were mostly college aged kids. their sole responsibility was to hunt the referee down after each game for the match card and to hunt him down again if anything's wrong with it. My last game was the U8B Final. So we're talking 7 year olds here. By this time in the tournament the lines could barely be identified. Maybe one goal box violation (3v3 rule) went unseen. Maybe. I was in a better spot to see it than anyone on the sideline though. There was one very loudmouthed and aggressive parent who directly insulted me and my vision (couldn't ID her so I let it go and with the emotional state of the coach, asking him to take care of it would have likely ended up in him, too, being sent off). She also incited the other parents to begin this as well. She went so far as to loudly tell the kids it's a corner while I'm signaling and saying goal kick. Finally after 2 minutes of sudden death overtime, it's done. You can bet your *ss I was running across the goal line by the third whistle. I motion to marshal to meet me in a more neutral area. While the parents are starting their witch hunt over to my new spot, the marshal just goes "Just part of the job, huh?" Just before that game she also came up to me and told me "That coach on the last game here was complaining about goal box calls so try watching more closely for that to keep him quiet" Last time I ever trust a field marshal.
If the field marshal isn't going to take care of a situation like this and you don't feel that asking the coach to calm the spectator will be worthwhile, just terminate the damn game and let the tournament deal with it. Not worth it at that point.
1. Field marshals at tournaments I used to attend were high school kids caught speeding. Spending Saturday and/or Sunday cold, bored and wet was their punishment.
As much use as turn-signals on a submarine.
2. Maybe leagues/tournaments could print "business cards" for referees to give to coaches who just can't act right.
Printed on, oh, I dunno, yellow card stock could be something like:
"Coach, I am sorry your behavior has forced me to issue this final warning.
Please modify your conduct, confine your movement to the Technical Area and limit your comments to tactical instructions to your players.
Further breaches WILL result in you being dismissed from the match."
There could be another version printed on a different color stock....
I haven't trusted a field marshal since I did a tournament that for some reason did an about face after years of not letting them do much of anything, told them to check in players. I then sent 3 players to the sidelines with jewelery. The tournament always scheduled a new ref for every game so they could check players in.
I've had to trust a field marshal once, and I really have no idea how it went. In one match I sent off one player from each team for VC and dismissed both coaches. The routine here was that game reports were given to the field marshal to return to the tournament. The one coach wanted his passes right then and there because "we're from out of state and are out of the tournament now anyways." No dice from me, but I did make certain the field marshal understood in no uncertain terms not to let him have the passes.
Seeing as how 5 minutes later a member of the tournament committee showed up to get a verbal report from me, I think the passes got there.
Here's one in favor of my field marshals. I have had the pleasure of working a big NJ tournament at the Army base over the years, and have had the good fortune to get a woman who knows exactly what her role is as Field Marshall. The other thing that works in our favor at the Army Base is that the MP's don't f-around. If you as a coach or spectator raise a problem that needs to be covered by someone outside the tournament, the MP's show up. Not a pretty sight.
The other FM story I have is this past Memorial Day weekend where we had a pro active FM who called the police over (they were there at a command post as it was a large tournament) when it was necessary to separate two feuding supporters. I was AR2 for that game, and I was wondering how the cops just happened to show up when needed!
So, my field marshall experiences have been pretty good.
Back when I was 18, I worked the unaffiliated base league at the local air force base (Adult 8v8 ranging from guys who played college/semi-pro down to guys who got drafted into their squadron team that afternoon).
A guy sitting on a yellow went in on an incredibly badly timed (not malicious, just awful) tackle late in one lopsided match. My hand is in my pocket as I'm blowing the whistle. Easiest second yellow you'll ever see. Before I can pull it, his teammate, a good guy I played on local adult league teams with, is next to me saying "Look, there's 2 minutes left, we're up by 6, if you walk him, he's going to get picked up by the MPs who don't get that a red card doesn't mean fighting [apparently a full-blown brawl was required to get tossed in the football or basketball leagues], we'll sit him, just keep in the game." Then the guy who was fouled is up and arguing the same way.
A few games later, there was a shovey moment that led to a pair of red cards. Sure enough, I wasn't getting gamed, the MPs showed up and took both guys into custody.
Where is this for my BU13 matches?
Gotta get caught to do the time.....