Exactly, in attack as the main attribute, I do not see how Zidane would be better than Cruyff, Zico, Platini Garrincha and go to my other post to see how I rate them ... " head to head match up" Many younger fans assumed his "midfield control" as part of the game and supposed he was good in defense, as he was Playing deeper. So I just highlighted that
He was a queer player no doubt. He was an attacking mid, but wasn't really prolific. He was a midfield anchor, no doubt, but was much less reluctant to defend or even be omnipresent in his team's passing game. Neither a Zico, Platini el al nor a Falcao, Ardiles, Xavi et al. Still a magical footballer.
Its so hard to rate a complete player because while highlighting a good level spread amongst many attributes eliminates certain players with specialties in specific areas. I have to say from footage I have seen that offensively Pele is the most complete with all of the physical gifts, vision, heading ability, dribbling, finishing, etc. Maradona too. Garrinchas dribbling was tops. Ronaldinhos imagination and short distance explosiveness. Zidanes fierceness and killer mentality. Edgar Davids' athletic defensive style. C Ronaldos complete array of dribbling short and long distances. Seedorfs attitude and approach to the game and team structure. So many options and categories.
I really, really don't see though, how somebody could consider Zidane a more 'rounded' player than Beckenbauer, Mattheus or Gullit though, for example. I just don't see how such an argument could even possibly be constructed. No offense to Zidane who was a great player, but there is not a single outfield attacking player who has ever played the game whose team have not needed him to defend at one point or another, nor a single outfield defensive player whose team have never needed them to get forward either. Hence, in those instances when called upon to play on the 'other side of the ball' yes, Zidane did show up as a less 'complete' player than others.
In what sense? Complete as in the sense of skillset that he has mastered? In that sense, he is as complete as it comes. Complete as in the sense of various forward positions that he can greatly (not just adequately) accommodate himself in? Here I can agree with you. But never ever bring "defending ability" into account while evaluating an offensive player's completeness.
Why not, though? If an attacking player is going to be required to defend at times (as all players are), then it is an added benefit if he is good at it and so it makes him more 'complete' than he would be without said defensive attributes. They are of course very, very secondary to his attacking abilities, but can help play a role all the same. Rooney for instance, would be a good current example of this. Also when you have a collection of players adept at both attacking and defending roles, it allows you to play a far more 'complete' style of play, such as Ajax's 'total football' in the 70s and Barca's current setup. However, if we are talking about how complete a player is in relation to where they play, then Yashin and Schmeichel deserve mention.
That's what it is. It is a luxury, and in most cases, an unneeded one. To be more precise, Zidane is more similar to an enganche (from a Latin perspective) than to a European playmaker. Rooney ability to adequately perform defensive duties tells me of his versatility (and his flexibility and work-ethic I guess), but less so his "completeness." If you are talking in terms of street or amateur level football, then yes, this could be categorized as being complete. But in terms of professional categorization, he is only complete if he possesses (and successfully executes) all the abilities required for the position in which he plays. Your example is right though. Rooney is one of the most complete players around...but not for the reason you provided.
My all time favourite player - "Captain Marvel" Bryan Robson! Most complete player ever for me - tough, old school but could score fantastic 30 yarders, powerful header of the ball, precision tackler and great captain!!!
I would go with Di Stefano. Of all players that I've extensively seen I think Gullit comes close. In 'modern times' he was the only one who could play at the highest level as defender and attacker alike. Weakest position was as central midfielder but roles as libero, stopper, side-back, defensive midfielder, attacking midfielder, second-striker, center-forward or winger were no problem for him at his peak. He could all do very well at the highest level.
For the Cruijff-thread I was rewatching and editing all highlights of the 83/84 season and it struck me too that Gullit was already very complete at that stage in his career. In one particular match he scored two goals without Cruijff on the field... ... and in another one he marked a certain Van Basten out of the game.
[The 2nd position that you mention sounds much like what some Brazilian mates of mine term (in English) as a "Brazilian-mould" spearhead centre-forward/No.9...]
Gullit was a very comeplete player. He could play center forward, Support striker, winger, CAM, and even DM
I notice a lot of people mentioned cruyff but not maradona. I dont get that really, maradona was better in dribbling, passing, shooting, skills, free kicks, probably headers but im not sure. I guess this depends what you mean by complete, cruyff could play more positions better, but maradona was more difficult to defend because he had more abilities
Ability to take PKs and direct free kicks was surely a big advantage and gave him, and his team, a lot of 'free goals'. Similarly, the total lack of this ability is in Cruijff his case something which you can hold against him. Very nice all these goals and assists but you needed another player to capitalize the PKs and free kicks. Also, it is a legitimate position to claim that Maradona was 'overall' the most skillful player ever. However, if there is one area where Cruijff was superior it was his weak foot ability. See the assist vs Argentina in WC1974, assist vs Belgium in 1976, and various videos I uploaded in the thread when he was aged 36-37. Few examples of weak foot ability in the 1983/1984 season alone: [01:21] [00:16] [01:31] [07:15] [this is not impressive but it is a left-footed goal against Liverpool at the peak of their powers] [between 08:57 and 09:30 three left-footed goals, last one is most spectacular] And that is not all and those are all moments of the 83/84 season. Lets not kid ourselves and think that Maradona was the best in everything. Beckenbauer was a lot better in choosing the right timing of his actions and someone like Van Basten or Müller were better in positioning and/or shooting. Or a Platini was a bit better in long-range passing, more consistent anyway, but made on the other hand less risky passes too.
I would definitely say Maradona. He was amazing when it comes to speed, dribbling, free kicks etc. I would also put him in the all-time top 3 when it comes to best footballers in general.
When he did that it was mentioned that amateur-football had performed it too. Some claimed that Cruijff had seen it. It was done at least three times in the highest amateur-division in the four seasons preceding Cruijff his 82/83 season. It is not on tape but it was a curious event so regional reports notice it. Cruijff did it on the fifth of December 1982, which is in the Netherlands a national holiday. Hence, it is called the 'Sinterklaas-penalty' (Santa Claus penalty). It was the 2:0, after he had already scored the 1:0 with his head. He has said 17599547 times that he saw himself as a weak header so that was also seen as something special. Finally, it is surely the only penalty kick of his career in an Ajax shirt in an official game. The Belgians later on claimed that Rik Coppens, a legendary footballer, did it before him and it is indeed on tape. In fact, many more footballers did it in the 1950s, as was pointed out by some experts. Somehow, this 'specialty' was not performed in the 1960s and 1970s, at least not at the highest divisions. Cruijff could have seen it but he admitted later that his inspiration was drawn from an amateur-match played in Amsterdam. Indeed, he was nervous. Only official PK of his career in an Ajax shirt. Did it on a national holiday And this can result in a failure, as was demonstrated by another #14:
[In British football lingo (& in English) the term a "complete footballer" or a "near-complete player" actually has a fairly specific meaning: it's a player who has "many strings to his bow". It means a player that can at least hold their own in the areas of passing, shooting, marking, tackling, etc.; and it usually means that the player is at least passable as a "forward-and-back" two-way player.]
Just read a 1991 Kicker interview with Friedhelm "Timo" Konietzka (recently deceased) about his time as a Borussia Dortmund player in the 1960s. He bragged that he was the shrewdest player in the Bundesliga at the time and cited as prime example that he and his striking partner Jürgen Schütz (the duo was known as "Max und Moritz") were the first to execute a penalty in the above way in the Bundesliga. The referee had to think for a moment if it was in line with the rules but then gave a goal.
You made your point - he is not the inventor of this PK and in this rare instance I agree. In fact, in a similar fashion, when he was asked about his opinion regarding the Pythagoras comparison, he said once: "Pythagoras invented something new whereas every move that an individual human can execute in football has been done before. The analogy with a composer or painter, who blend various pre-existing parts together into a composition, suits better." He also said a short while ago that most things are for the first time implemented at lowers levels before the elite levels are convinced. 'Innovations', or re-using of earlier thoughts, take place at lowers levels. That is also often overlooked: we often think that the Serie A goalscoring revolution started with Sacchi but many Italian experts will tell you that this is not true. It gradually filters through towards the top. Similarly, a re-usage of an earlier trick at amateur-levels was needed before it was implemented at a league game. By the way: he had this in mind for over more than a year but waited at the right moment to execute. Jesper Olsen said after the match to the media that the idea existed since the very first days of Cruijff his return at Ajax. They just waited for the right moment. The literal quote of Cruijff is: "The idea existed for a while and the inspiration was a moment I saw as a spectator at a lower level." Same is true with the Panenka penalty. Panenka practiced it countless times and it was not new either. If your point, as usual (I know your post history), was to diminish the special nature of the moment, then I strongly disagree. But of course it is not new. How do you find those interviews very quick by the way? Are they indexed or cataloged in an database?
How could they have done this if Schütz leaved Dortmund in 1963, before the formation of the Bundesliga?