Well I can only judge Pele based on old footage, but I've never noticed him play a defensive role before so I guess its hard to judge what you've posted unless you can supply footage of him actually doing what you suggested he could do, lets not forget Gerrard has done it for years in arguably the best League in the world. But unless you can actually back up your point by providing footage, I find that hard to believe lol Pele was great footballer btw
Well Pele played >1000 games and how many footages of his available in youtube, web? much less then 100 Now I am glad your'e an English fan, since of course you know who Sir Boby Moore was (a Winning WC captain of England only WC, a legend in football history, a WC greatest DF) - Let's hear from him: And perhaps the words of Moore, a dignified, stylish yet no less passionate opponent, captured the essence of Pele more powerfully than any mere observer. "Pele was the most complete player I've ever seen," Moore later said. "He had everything. Two good feet. Magic in the air. Quick. Powerful. Could beat people with skill. Could outrun people. Only 5ft 8in tall, yet he seemed a giant of an athlete on the pitch. Perfect balance and impossible vision. "He was the greatest because he could do anything and everything on a football pitch. I remember Saldhana the coach being asked by a Brazilian journalist who was the best goalkeeper in his squad. He said Pele. The man could play in any position." ================================================== Believe it or not? Bobby Moore has no business to "bluff" on Pele's ability for nothing. Much less so, Sir Bobby Moore was a well respectful KNIGHT (uncrowned) in England. Now let's review on Sir Bobby Moore credits: The Bobby Moore Stand? It is time to make a stand for Bobby Moore. This is the perfect time to petition His Blairness to enact a unique dispensation. A knight of the realm? Sir Bobby Moore was a Prince of England. Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/columnis...in-ranks-footballs-knights.html#ixzz2z6EBwvWg The Football Association will pay its respects at Wembley on Sunday, although its treatment of Moore after his playing career finished has been severely criticized. Moore was given no honorary position at the FA and instead turned his hand to media work, always keeping a dignified silence. Many people have since lobbied for Moore to be awarded a posthumous knighthood, but no one has ever received the honour after death. "He should have been a sir, there's no doubt about that," says Peters
I could dig out quote's from Legends of the game who'd claim Gerrard is the most complete player they've played against, you'll probably find that just as many players have said Gerrard's been the best they've played against, and most complete etc. Many players say that about other players, that's a common thing. Like read this what Zidane has said about Gerrard... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...best-player-world-Liverpool-star-Gerrard.html Another quote from Daniele De Rossi... "Gerrard has been my idol for 10 years and is one of the best players in the world. He is the example of what all midfield players aspire to. He is always there in the heat of the battle, leading by example. He is everywhere you look - in defence, in the middle of the pitch and in attack. I would love to be close to that level." You know I could post these all day long...who cares, but Pele was a forward, a complete attacking player.
yes he was a very good winger for Napoli - or shall we say a wide FW then soon became a key player . Giordano was mani striker until Careca was signed in, Carnevale was a right FW/winger. (in the mould of Eder or Kuit or Wiltord ) Maraodna was CAM
Only one I have ever seen calling Carnevale a winger is you. Whatever, maybe someone else can confirm or refute.
Carnevale played up front with Giordano, and Maradona just a bit behind, in what was the original Ma-Gi-Ca forward line (they combined for over 40 goals). Looking at the lineup against Juventus that @JamesBH11 posted, without Careca, Alemao and Francini that teams look quite ordinary on paper.
then you still have a lot to learn from LOL' Look at his position in description and do NOT argue Carnevale = Ala Sinistra (Wide FW) Giordano = Centravanti (center or main striker)
Yes. If one wants one can also separate the 1990-91 season in two parts: before Maradona his ban and after Maradona his ban (which was a big shock for everyone). Before the ban: 7W 11D 8L (26 games) - 25 for 31 against After the ban: 4W 4D 0L (8 games) - 12 for 6 against This 'after the ban' includes games against strong teams like Internazionale, Torino, Juventus, As Roma. Again, Maradona was beyond doubt a great player and achiever. The issue at stake is that very often some unrealistic bars are set. Cardinale was an actress, not a football player. But I guess you mean Carnevale ; I think it is quite obvious that Carnevale reached a higher level in his career at a variety of clubs. Padovano was (when looking at his total career) of a lower level I'd say. That's right, but all arriving from set-pieces. Does that strengthen the argument for Maradona his indispensability or does it weaken the argument? The games he missed in the 1989-90 scudetto winning season: 1. 27-08-1989 Ascoli - Napoli 0-1 2. 03-09-1989 Napoli - Udinese 1-0 3. 06-09-1989 Cesena - Napoli 0-0 4. 10-09-1989 Verona - Napoli 1-2 26. 25-02-1990 Inter - Napoli 3-1 27. 04-03-1990 Napoli - Genoa 2-1 After the first four rounds (in which Maradona did not play) Napoli was at the top of the table (The other foreigners Alemao & Careca missing the first three rounds too; Alemao came in as a sub in the fourth round at the 38th minute). Betis couldn't pay Denilson, quite clearly. The transfer (both the cost and structure of the transfer) was a large reason why they ended into bankruptcy! So what's there to expect? Napoli on the other hand could pay for Maradona, at least for a while. They could also pay for Bagni, Renica, Alemao, Careca, Bertoni etcetera... How do you mean this?
Nominally, Ala Sinistra = Left Winger. This is #11. But, in italian system at that time, the LW played as a Second Striker (i.e. Riva, Bettega, etc.), So, in fact, upfront there was a twin spearhead, meanwhile the nominal RW drop back to midfield as RM. Also, Graziani, usually #9 at club level, weared #11 in WC'82. Or viceversa, in case of Massaro in WC'94.
Entirely correct I feel. That section posted by James is from an overview for the 1986-87 season. In that (successful) season Carnevale had the most field-goals & open play goals for Napoli. He scored 8 goals from open play. Maradona was club topscorer with 10 goals, but 3 PK-goals and 1 FK goal. So it can be said that Carnevale was in that campaign the main scorer/striker. 27 appearances (9 times as sub, 5 times subbed out), 8 goals (0PK). Compared with his club-mates it are the statistics of a scorer and/or striker. An excellent match showing what Carnevale did is the Napoli - Verona game of 1987-88.
Carnevale had very little playmaking duties however, he almost always roamed up front (upper third of the field) next to Careca. Even so only he scored only one more goal if we exclude pk's. Scoring free kicks is a very difficult craft and should not be dismissed just to lower Maradona's tally
yes and no Yes: in direct translation = #11 No: in reality, Carnevale was not a "traditional winger type" (like Figo Pires Overmars) , but more like a very good forward who often play on the flank .... like Kuit, Wiltord (2nd FW) on the right or like Podolski, Henry ... on the left. But they are not winger per se ... Actually Carnevale could play in both sides Carnevale became a key player for Napoli to help Maradona connecting/playmaking from MF to striking position ... from 87 -91, especially with Careca as #9 (a big improvement to Giordano) plus Alemao marshal in center midfield ... (like Dunga, Vieira, R Keane )
Free kicks are deducted to show the (plausible) role within a team; when creating attacks and goal-attempts.
This makes no sense, as free kicks don't occur in a vacuum. Most of these free kicks that Maradona took for Napoli were because a foul was the only way the opponent could stop him.
that is true ... Maradona was labeled as the "most fouled" player in history ... coming from Serie A of 80's - besides his 20games at WC level to worldwide admitance
So, he was not really a winger, even less so a RIGHT winger, and was not a sub either... Thats what I thought. BTW, that same info you shared, James, that deems Carnevale "Ala Sinistra" calls Romano "Ala Destra". I dont consider neither of them a winger, as crazy as it may sound to you.
not that "crazy" though as in fact they did function on the sides most games ... Like many LABEL Jaizinho as a "right winger" ? that was even more crazy, as he was a CAM, FW by his nature
Look I said Carnevale was like a sub in "early season 86-87" and became a key player at last half season toward 87-90 Let's borrow Vegan's post (picture of PLAYER' s rating Napoli winning champs 86-87) Only Maradona was highly rated along with 4 DF: Ferrara, Bagni, Renica and Romano
How old was Ferrara that season? I'm guessing 21, that's a great rating for a young defender. It's really a shame he did not get to start for Italy in any international tournament.
In 1990-91 Maradona was not really the Maradona of the previous seasons. They managed 8 games without loosing, thats ok. But there was nothing at stake anymore. And of those 8 games, 5 were at home, including Inter and Juve. We all know that about Maradona, but I thought the issue at hand was the goals scored by Napoli in 91-92 vs the goals scored in 89-90. Yeah, I dunno where that came from... It is not as obvious for me. I still hold they were players of similar caliber. Of course, we dont know how good Padovano would have seemed with Maradona behind him... I dont care to dwell about it, we can just disagree. They may have arrived from set-pieces, but he was not there in 1989-90 to take advantage of the set-pieces so greatly executed by Maradona. Cant dismiss it. It certainly helps explain the parity in the offensive output of the team that you have (again) raised to the table. In your view, how does this here diminish the importance of Maradona as the leader of the championing Napoli? Ascoli, Verona and Udinese got relegated that season... Verona and Genoa finished in the lower half of the table... I only brought it up in response to Comme's post that seemed to me was implying that only a major club can buy the most expensive player out there. Third tier teams like Napoli and Betis did too. Napoli bought the best player in the world for a record transfer fee and two seasons later they were third in Serie A entering a continental competition. Betis bought a flashy mediocre player for a record fee as well (crazy decision IMO). Two season later they got relegated... Napoli had nothing before Maradona. With him a project started and a proper supporting cast had to be provided. Many players came and went during those years indeed.
Actually he turned 20 in early 1987. Just bad luck with injuries and perhaps too many quality Itlaian defenders during his time.
Perhaps thats what you think you said, but what you actually did say is this: And on top of all, I believe he started the season as a starter... But lets drop it, mate. Not that important.
yes like Once said Ferrara was just 20 when he "led Napoli" defensive zone behind Maradona's back to SerieA success - before Alemao joining to help him better ... Ferrara was often underrated for Italy produced too many great DF before him ... like Fachetti, Scirea, Baresi. Bergomi, Collovati, Cabrini ... and then in same era, he got Maldini, and later Nesta, Canavaro ...
so is anything wrong? he was a sub in 86-87 first half season (when we were talking about Napoli won over Juve that season, no?) Note he was just arrived and was "tested " by coach ... but quickly he proved to be a key player in that team