For starters, we've played a lot of 451/433 in the last few years to suggest we'd be more than willing to operate outside our traditional 442. Secondly, option 1 is best imo. In a team w/ a genuine 10 like Rooney and with Rossi in reserve as well as a 9 with great movement we'll be fine. When you add Ronaldo to the mix, we'll have no problem with creativity and penetration. In fact, Scholes has been sitting very deep this season not playing like an AM so the only change would be a greater defensive pressence and a greater realiance on Carrick, the DM and Rooney for ball retention.
I think he meant Ronaldo playing as our only winger with the freedom to switch sides. Either way, if Rooney is not going to be used correctly then bench him and bring him on if required later on in the game.
You're a very rigid thinker aren't you. I dont agree with anything you've said at all, especially about Carrick, but Benni and Johno have already explained what Carrick is all about so I dont need to. Now, who said we're not gonna drop the 4-4-2? Sir Alex likes to play different formations in different matches. (For example, the out and out 4-4-2 against weaker sides, and the more "solid" '4-3-3' against bigger sides) We're not gonna be sticking to a 4-4-2 all the time. Second, Carrick in a 4-4-2 will be absolutely fine, especially if he's paired with a defense-first defensive midfielder. For one, our defense to attack transition will be awesome, because Carrick is ALWAYS sitting in front of the defense waiting for the ball. Also, with Carrick and another DM in central midfield, why would we be relying on wingers and forwards for penetration alone? Haven't you seen the amount of defense splitting passes Carrick has conjured up this season? Now imagine him free of most of his defensive responsibility, he'll be roaming the pitch, spraying beautiful passes all over the place. Second, what's wrong with relying on the forwards and wingers for penetration? Unlike England, our forward movement isn't pathetic. It is impossible to man mark our forwards because they are always all over the place. Ronaldo pops up in the middle, on the left, up front, back on the right, Rooney drops back into "the hole" where he does most of his damage, he pops up on the wings, at right back tackling... Saha is up front, on the left, in midfield.....it's damn near impossible to stop. In a 4-4-2 with Carrick and a DM in the center of midfield, I can only see us getting stronger, because for one, when we're defending, we'll have one defensively competent player and one excellent defensive player protecting the back four. Two, Carrick will be free of his defensive shackles to create. Three, our attack minded players can go all out and not worry about leaving us exposed at the back. It's win win.
I think it will depend on who we are playing against. Chelsea, Liverpool and Arsenal, we will play Carrick and a DM. Atleast thats what I think. But other teams, anything goes. I really think it all points back to the formation discussion. Because I think 4-3-3 is the future. Wether its some unorthodox, or just two straight WFs.
Free to play absolutely no defence whatsoever and leave both fullbacks exposed whenever they overlap?
I'm far from rigid. If you look at any of the threads involving players and formations on this board you will see a variety of tactical alternatives/options I've put forward involving Carrick. I think I may have put my point across poorly, because you seem to be mis reading what I'm trying to get across. I wasn't saying we're never going to change formation, I wanted peoples opinion on the best use of Carrick within the favoured 4-4-2 formation post Scholes. I also didn't want this thread to become another '4-4-2 or not 4-4-2' thread which it inevitably would have. Believe it or not I'm actually in agreement with a lot of what you and Johnno have said regarding the Defensive minded partner in the future. My original post contained my concerns that Carrick is not a natural defensivly minded player and 'what would be the way forward?', It was question on the way forward and in no way a statement that Carrick is not good enough. Regarding the "relying on forwards and Wingers for penetration" with a DM, I was just pointing out that you would be less likely to have a Ballack/Scholes/Gerrard player ghosting in and around the box in a physical sense and not (as you seem to have understood) that it is a unworkable strategy.
Ok, that clears things up considerably - I actually think that Rooney will blossom into a more creative player eventually. Why? When he came to us he had the raw tools but he didn't know exactly how to use them. Prior to United he had like 4 assists as his career high. His first year he had 5 but SAF started talking to him about being more creative and using guile during his 2nd preseason (the first one he could play) and we saw Rooney attempt a few more defense opening passes while faking shots etc. He had 14 assists last year as a result of this. This season we've seen Rooney add even more refinement to his game. He's not taking as many bad shots and even in his goal scoring, he relies far less often on long shots but his vision is actually being used now. His assist to Fletcher the other day was imo, as remarkable as his chip against Portsmouth. What's happened this season? Ronaldo's more involved than ever (Rooney use to have to be on the ball a lot more to be effective) and Rooney has 10 assists with quite a few games to go. Rooney could quite easily have a 20 goal 20 assist year - to achieve that at 21 is nothing short of remarkable. All that to say that we may not truly NEED a Scholes ghosting in and being creative because when Rooney enters his peak and starts to produce at his highest level (this should begin or coincide with Scholes' retirement) he'll be fulfiling the role of 2 players - the 10 and the 8 so there'll be less pressure on Carrick to do more than he's used to. I'm gonna put this in the Rooney thread.
Oh ok, that clears up a lot, sorry if I seemed too harsh. I also agree with Johno in that Rooney could make up for the lack of Scholes.
Like Teso said, Ronaldo gets a ree-er role, where he'll also be our sole "winger", with the ability to drift out on both flanks. That's what he's done so far in the Champions League and he's been extremely successfull. It's when he really plays his best football. Also in this game, I don't want Scholes to have his season long role of aiding Carrick and also being the tackler back there. That's why I included Fletcher. It's not so much that I want him to play more defensively. He'll pretty much do what he's done so far this season except with less defensive responsibilities. Maybe I just lined the team up wrong. From what I recall we were never ever really effective playing with wingers against this Lille team. Everything in the air was immediately cancelled out by their defenders. It's best to take this game to them on the ground. Neville and Evra will do their usual runs upfront but this lineup wouldn't be too reliable on them doing so, as Ronaldo will do most of the running on the wings (with Scholes filling in when he does so) and has the ability to feed the two forwards. Also we always have the ability to bring Rooney in. That should always be an extra boost for us. I know it's a risky lineup, we haven't exactly been impressive in the CL, at least not to me, and this line up is exclusively built for this Lille team, taking under consideration their cynical player, defensive minded lineup, and games of last season.
Some good points - if we aren't going to use Evra for attacking purposes we might as well play Heinze because Evra can't stand up to constant battering he'll take without a winger acting as a screen. That's where Rooney on the wing has helped us... he's been a screen and done a heap of defensive work, much more than Scholes and Ronaldo combined.
But I think Rooney would agree with me that the team loses much more than it gains when he's on the wing.
bump... the lad looks like he's having a crisis of confidence to me. Anyone else feel this way? He's not the Carrick of last term, that's for sure. He's got until Fletch is back or Hargreaves to really stamp his impression on the team.. He's lucky he can't be dropped right now, I think. Hope he gets his head together.
It's disappointing. I'm a big Carrick fan and this kills me. If you can't stand competition for your spot then United is not the team for you. I bet this is perplexing Fergie, too. I think some of this is down to the players in front of him being out of sync, but he's got to be good enough to compensate. I really want him to come good because I'm not sure we'll ever be able to count on Hargreaves.
Carrick was MOTM against Chelsea. He was certainly better than Scholes tonight. Let's be clear, Scholes is the problem at the moment but it's not something people want to talk about.
He's definitely feeling the pressure. A lot was expected from him after last season, and now with Hargreaves threatening, and knowing Scholes won't be removed he's trying his hardest, but simultaneously bottling it. At the same time, when he's on the pitch with an underwhelming, and underperforming Scholes, he's feeling even more pressure, all of which he can't handle at the moment. A return of a performing Hargreaves can help this situation. I believe Carrick will pick up on it and start performing like he did last season, but we can't count on Hagreaves being fit or Scholes being dropped.
That I agree with completely. Scholes looks off so far this year. As where there were times last year when Carrick was causing Scholes to play cautiously but now it seems they have reversed roles. Carrick is too up and down and considering there is no real back up for Scholes this is probably going to be a long season through the central of midfield. Especially considering it looks like OH will be in and out, maybe mostly out.
Exactly, I just don't see this supposed poor play from Carrick. Ever since that Chelsea performance he's looked really solid to me, and has bombed forward a fair bit and well as won numerous tackles in midfield. I also agree with you about Scholes but Scholes is a legend and seemingly untouchable on these boards. I don't see what exactly Carrick is supposed to be doing? Is he supposed to carry our attack? Not with Scholes in that midfield telling him what to do. Is he supposed to bomb forward all the time? And leave who behind to defend? Scholes? lol
Now that's an interesting statement.. Paul Scholes is playing worse than Michael Carrick... or, Paul Scholes is not playin like we expect Paul Scholes to play.. there's a big difference. If you're saying it's the first one, I'd love to hear your reasoning. Scholes has far more strings to his bow than Carrick, and although he's not performing anything like he can, he's doing a fair few things right. Carrick has a lot less to fall back on and he's not doing those things well right now. The Chelsea performance is misleading. There was no AM on the pitch for them, thus, our man was playing almost solely in one direction. He's struggling to impose himself on games when it's opened up to two-way consdieration, right now. The brief for Scholes and Carrick isn't the same, and furthermore, it's not Scholes who is likely to be dropped, whether that is right or wrong is another debate entirely
Take the sentiment out of this and look at the performances of Scholes and Carrick as if you'd never seen them before. In the last few games Carrick has been the better central midfielder. He was better against Chelsea, better against Birmingham, and better tonight. His passing is better, his tacking is better, his workrate is better. Scholes was sleepwalking against Birmingham, and was little better tonight.
Aww come on DS...don't make me do my rendition of the splicer. Paul Scholes is not playing worse than Carrick no but he's no better either. Also, how do we expect Scholes to play these days? It seems he'd rather not ghost forward or even pass forward for that matter. He'd rather be a DLP it seems. I don't really get what you're saying. If you're saying he's more skillfull than Carrick, then yes, he is, but he isn't showing it, and he isn't falling back on anything. How many times has Carrick given the ball away leading to a clear cut chance for the opposition this season? How much times has Scholes done the same? I think you know the answer. I also don't know what you think Carrick isn't doing right. He picks up the ball in front of the back four, passes it around, keeps possession, tackles well enough, intercepts a few passes, tries the odd defense splitting pass etc etc, I just don't see what he's doing wrong, and I don't know what you expect from him? Keep in mind he was heavily involved in the build up to our goal today and made a run into the box that kept one of the defenders honest. Where was Scholes? I don't get your point, how was his performance misleading and what does Chelsea not having Lampard have to do with it? He can only outplay what's in front of him. How many times did he nick the ball off Essien, or drop a shoulder and lose him completely? How many players do that? And that was just part of his performance. What exactly is 'the brief' for both of them? I'm curious as to what you expect from Scholes and Carrick separately.
I think he's playing to the level we expect but he's also starting to have matches where Carrick is the better midfielder. Even removing the Chelsea game, which is unfair, Carrick has been the much better passer by far this campaign and well... no one goes in for a tackle like the Ginger Prince. Very true, Scholes is a legend and will likely not be dropped. Even if, who replaces him?
How about being benched by a sicknote? On a serious note, I didnt think that his problem is something imposed by his own issues. I think it has to do more with the coach, the personel around him etc. I think its down to Scholes playing with him. Can someone tell me, when is the last time Carrick dominated midfield on his own, apart from against Chelsea?
Carrick should have a free pass AFAIC. You buy a DLP and expect him to do the job of 2 midfielders? Thats what it looks like here at least. Just because we won the league with Scholes and Carrick doesnt mean it worked. It could just mean thats how poor the rest of the league's midfield is, or that the rest of our team was soooo good, it covered for their mistakes. I honestly dont know, but it looks like the things that are holding Carrick back, are outside forced (IE Fergie, Scholes). I dunno. Just talking...