Well first off, you completely took that statement out of context. Here's what that statement was responding to: My statement was saying that there's no proof HG has been better for development, because the number of HG prospects who have become impacts on their team has not been proven to be any higher than the equivalent prospect who took the college route. I also said that it's not exactly a fair comparison because the HG program is still in its infancy, but there's no data to prove that it is making the draft irrelevant yet. Maybe that changes 5 years from now, but today no. So in other words, I never indicated that senior team minutes was necessary to develop your player, because players are at different areas in their development, and some of them are more ready for that level than others. Like i implied above, I only used the senior team minutes as a measuring stick to see how well the HG program has managed to develop them thus far. And so far it's impact is inconclusive in comparison to college. And even if the HG program proves to be very effective, it still wouldn't make the draft irrelevant. The fact is there are far more prospects out there than MLS teams could possibly carry right now, and that number will only grow as the sport becomes more popular and we do a better job teaching kids (or allowing kids to learn) how to play at the local and regional levels And that's not even taking into consideration foreign kids who could become attracted to MLS academies, and thus become potential HG players. Hell how about the prospects from the other 80 DA academies that want to join the MLS?? with the MLS pushing for league-wide balance, likely they'll allow those DA academy players who aren't in an MLS academy to join the draft. If anything that will increase the importance of the draft beyond college players. I think it would help if they got more games. Why would teams in europe like barcelona, hertha berlin, dortmund, etc even have reserve teams in lower divisions in their prospects didn't need any games to develop?? The fact is while it's way overemphasized in our development here at times, it's still important, and brushing it off as unimportant makes very little sense. There are things you develop in practice, and things you develop in game situations. Both are pivotal in maximizing your potential. There's a reason why there's such a push right now to integrate the lower divisions into MLS, and to push MLS teams to loan their players out more frequently. Do you think ethan white hurt himself being loaned to richmond?? he wasn't training with as many good players, or in as quality of an environment. College has an appropriate amount of games, but not enough practice and games are too condensed. I think the HG programs have enough practice but way too few games. That's my viewpoint on it. Well white was loaned, to get more playing in richmond. Like i said before, why bother if it isn't necessary? Fagundez, Agudelo and Najar are promising. I don't know much about Doneil Henry. I think it's hard to compare those guys though, as the college equivalents of the same age haven't graduated from college and entered the MLS yet. I think when that happens we can look back on this and compare that draft class with this HG group. Well say that to the fairly sizable chunk of HG players who were just cut recently. And also they cost a bit more than a practice jersey. It doesn't affect the salary cap, but it does cost them money. If you can actually quantify that claim (the hit rate part), i'd like to see it (not challenging, it but curious and would like to see the actual numbers). I agree MLS academies have only been around a few years, and homegrowns will get better. I think that will happen when the MLS incorporates a better reserve/minor system to help give these guys proper development in the gap between academy and the senior team.
Most PDL players are not paid apart from expenses, because most PDL players are college players who don't want to lose eligibility. There's definitely no pay-to-play. The PDL plays in the summer, when college teams are out of season. College players may have limited training hours with their college teams, but those who play in the PDL have unlimited training time with their PDL teams. PDL is considered fourth-tier (and highest amateur level), by the way. There are two pro tiers below MLS. NASL (second tier) clubs appear to at least pay their starters enough to play soccer full-time. The USL does not, but quite a few players make ends meet by playing in USL in the summer and MISL (indoor) in the winter. Because the MISL also can't pay enough to support full-time pros, the majority of MISL players do double duty between USL and MISL teams, and are able to do it because the seasons overlap by only one or two weeks each year. The tiers in the US boil down to: 1. MLS (full-time pro) 2. NASL (mostly full-time pro) 3. USL / MISL (semipro, players can earn a living by playing in both leagues) 4. PDL / NCAA (amateur, players can play in both simultaneously) I've noticed a few cases of NASL and USL teams signing players under 22. Some have actually been college students who decided to forgo college eligibility in favor of training and playing with the local NASL or USL club. I'm still surprised at how many people make recommendations for improving US soccer without actually knowing what the lower divisions look like.
I never said it would. There will always be players who start off late or live too far from an MLS team, or just fall through the cracks. But as the academies grow, the draft will become less important than it has been in past years. More than leaving the roster spot empty, but no more than any other player on the roster. Again: teams don't pay their own salaries, except for DPs. Each team pays 1/19th of every player's salary in the league. And for GA players, they don't even pay that; Adidas does. The capital calls the MLS owners get are adjusted for things like local TV revenue and player transfer fees. They aren't adjusted based on that team's roster. As for getting cut...if a team doesn't think a player is worth a roster spot even for zero cap hit, they cut him. The homegrown players are mostly on GA contracts, so they get money to go back to college if they want to. The homegrown program has done everything it could at that point. Youth prospects don't always pan out; it's sad but true. There's a complete (if somewhat inaccurate) list of homegrown signings through last July here: http://pressbox.mlssoccer.com/http://pressbox.mlssoccer.com/homegrownplayers There are 56 players on the list, most of them from 2011 and 2012.
Actually, almost all players in England's top five tiers are full-time pros. Soccer is big business in the larger European nations, with lower division teams drawing better than minor-league baseball teams at equivalent levels; in the big four (England, Spain, Germany, Italy) you have to go down at least four tiers to find even one player who has to hold a day job.
Yeah i don't think you made that claim, but my original response on this thread was to somebody who said the draft was now becoming irrelevant because of the HG program. I won't dispute that it will lessen it's importance, but irrelevant i think is a strong word to use, seeing as this is a pretty sizeable country and not every prospect out there is elgible for a HG contract. Actually I didn't know about the part of the owners paying 1/19th of every player's salary, kind of an interesting setup. And you are 100% correct, not every youth prospect pans out. I'm not arguing the HG's program role fundamentally, but I am making an argument that it isn't the perfect system, as a way to support the original argument the guy made (im too lazy to backtrack to find the poster's name) that said the draft was becoming irrelevant as a result. Granted I hope the HG program turns out to be a huge success, and there is a lot of promise in it. Thanks for the list. We'll see how a lot of these players turn out, and if they end up becoming guys who contribute in the MLS long term (not all of them of course, but the pct you'd expect youth prospects to pan out at) then I'll gladly admit I am wrong in some of the points i've tried to make on here. To make one more point about this list, Najar and Agudelo (fagundez actually as well) are pretty elite prospects for MLS standards. They were guys who got HG contracts but were basically ready to start for the senior team day 1. Fagundez had to wait a bit, but his problem was more physically maturing than not having a good enough game for the senior team (if im not mistakened). Granted you could argue college would have stunted their growth, but I think they likely would have gotten generation adidas contracts or would have gone abroad. I think my debate is more about the arbitrary youth playerwho is good enough for a division 1 scholarship and a HG contract, but is far from a home run type of prospect. The only guy who had to wait a
If that's the case, we can add to the SuperDraft lists then. I just went down the line from pick 1 until I got the numbers you posted with your examples. Freddy Adu got a national team cap at 16 ... just saying. Then why did you ? You're the one that made the comparison to "most SuperDrafts," not me. To a certain degree I agree with the viewpoint of the 5yr younger guy being much more attractive. However, there's more to it than simply "potential." Now wait a tick ... I was going like for like with the guys you gave as your examples. You even begged the question about who was "on the level of players I listed." Guys like Mwanga, Opara, and Estrada have either played as many minutes, garnered as many or more starts, or have made the same impact or more for their team(s) than some of the guys you listed. Agudelo and Najar are the only two you put out there that are on a different level, and even the two of them have equals in the SuperDraft (at this point). You can talk about potential all you'd like and that's fine. It's just a different part of the discussion. That's fine, but today it doesn't work into it ... especially when you're trying to make a debate about those that are, and those that aren't. What the landscape is in 5yrs has no bearing on the discussion today. Don't mistake my stance. I'm not saying the HGs aren't on the rise or won't be a very solid addition to our current development programs. I'm not saying they can't hold their own. That though, wasn't where the discussion was taking place. College is and will continue to be a major source (if not the main source) of development for soccer in this country for a long time (unless the USSF works something out with the NCAA and it becomes something new all together).
I am moving to Oregon next year and will support the Timbers, I have lived in Ireland all my life, the standard of the League of Ireland is much worse that the MLS, MLS have much bigger crowds than the League of Ireland but.... The fans are a lot more PC than i am used too, The playoff system baffles me (Why doesnt a team who top's the league after the "regular season" win the league? It proves that they have been the most consistent all season) The lack of lower leagues baffles me (I know NASL and USL pro but they are hardly any clubs and over a huge distance, if it were me id lump all these clubs into the same league and have two regions and then have a playoff system for the top two in each division playoff(I know this contradicts my above comment about playoffs but this is the only reason i can justify it)) As above this leads to a lack of clubs or vis virsa (I was looking for any other clubs within a 5 hour radius and could not see any semi pro league clubs) Portland has huge support and could support a second club (even at a lower level of football, USL pro would have a short trip to Sacremento, or a lower level, Timbers u23 team are in the USL development league i guess) Timbers Army are strong and have huge numbers, i think there would be enough support to support a semi pro team in Ametuer leagues ie. Pacific soccer league (I know they have teams but just at a local level in Rec leagues) I dont understand why yee have western and eastern conferences in the MLS and still travel to the other end of the country. US Open Cup has potential in my view but is poorly supported by the fans.
By and large good points, Owen. The reason we have a playoff system is primarily because we have an unbalanced schedule (also, because Americans like it). The unbalanced schedule we have is because a) our league is growing and is currently between handy numbers and b) because we are so geographically large. We did the single-table thing for a couple seasons, but almost everyone involved said the travel was too extensive and that it was damaging the quality of play. So they set up systems of conferences to promote much more regional play (so the cross-conference, major-travel matches were rarer, at least). We don't have successful leagues under MLS because we're just not there yet. We're a baby country for soccer. We've tried building leagues over the years, but a lot of it (all the way to the top level) has been chaotic and prone to collapse. In the future, promotion and relegation and vibrant lower divisions may become an integral part of our system, but for now, our club quantity and density just cannot support it. And the Open Cup is supported poorly because it's promoted poorly. We won it in KC this summer, and we hardly heard anything about it before. I'm not certain we even sold out the final, which puts it down as one of maybe three games (and only one of those regular-season) that we didn't sell out Livestrong. Seattle has done a great job of letting their fans know it's a big frickin deal, despite the weak cash payout (I think we got 100,000 dollars... and paid out 375k just to host the final at home). The entrance to our struggling (and also wildly underpromoted) Champions League and the bragging rights of taking home some silverware are the only two real reasons to even spend time thinking about it. Actually, I wonder if there's a good Open Cup discussion thread somewhere. I want to see other people's ideas on how to make it a bigger deal and get fans (and teams, truthfully) to care about it.
Owen very good questions raised, and its nice to help foreigners learn American ways/culture etc. I'm still trying to find my way to Irelend for a trip but haven't made it yet. I can add comments on 2 of your questions.
Im still in Ireland if you want to make your way over to the start of our season in Febuary. You say playoff's create extra suspense. are you saying the English Premier League did not have a entertaining finish last season? Things are not always so tight at the end of the season but when it is, it is really a spectical. I will not personally attend a playoff MLS game as i think it is retarded, not that Portland will be in many soon. I may go to some Portland Phenoix or Timbers u23 games instead. A bit like the way yee used not have draws. I cant speak for every Football fan who has no/little interest in the MLS but these rules/structures put off many who like the traditional structure & rules.
Most American soccer fans understand where you are coming from with regard to playoffs. It's actually somewhat controversial, with a small but significant minority unhappy with the fact that MLS decides its champion with playoffs at all. Another minority is staunchly in favor of playoffs and wouldn't have it any other way. The majority is in the middle and would be happy enough either way. Certainly, most have accepted the fact that playoffs are here to stay. The Powers That Be have decided in favor of them, and there's nothing that will change that. So, while some might be put off, there aren't enough of them (apparently) to cause anyone in power to take notice.
I think the other factor is that a large percentage of American fans grew up watching the Mexican or other Latin American leagues, many of which had playoffs long before MLS existed. Playoffs are arguably the traditional format in Latin America, and no one doubts that region's footballing history.
Or, you know, every single other American sport league uses playoffs at every level of competition ...
If by "PC" you mean "not overtly racist or homophobic," that's something we're mostly proud of. There are aspects of European soccer that MLS fans have, to their credit, mostly refused to import. After the example Europe has set of extreme right-wing politics and sectarian violence at games, can you blame the MLS fans for going, if anything, too far in the other direction? Because "most consistent" isn't the only, or the unambiguously best, way to award a championship. Otherwise the world champion would be decided based on FIFA rankings, instead of by a giant set of playoffs we call the World Cup. European fans (and Americans who idolize Europe) talk a lot about the intuitive "fairness" of having a balanced, round-robin regular season. And obviously that has its intuitive appeal. But there's just as much intuitive appeal, to my mind, in saying, "Here are the best few teams this year. Let's have the best teams play each other, and the one who wins deserves the championship." The Premier League finish was exciting this year, because the top two teams were playing on the last day for the championship--something that rarely happens in non-playoff leagues. But wouldn't it have been even more exciting if City and United were playing each other? The playoff system makes that happen--a final, high-stakes game for the championship--every year. That's the main problem, of course: it's not a short trip from Portland to Sacramento. The trip from Portland to Sacramento is longer than the trip from Dublin to Paris. Do you think a second-division team in Dublin could survive if one of the shorter regular-season games they had was to Paris, or Antwerp, or Rotterdam? That's why the most successful lower-level teams we have are the ones subsidized by colleges (and by more popular sports, such as college football). There are fifty colleges or universities in Oregon, and at least ten of them have soccer teams. One thing Europeans don't always realize is that in the United States, it's perfectly socially acceptable in many places to "adopt" your local college team as a minor league team even if you didn't attend school there. I've always thought it was weird personally, but nobody else here seems to.
What do you mean by this? American sporting culture is different from European sports culture. As has been mentioned, playoffs are pretty common in the Western Hemisphere and they're standard in every other major American/Canadian sports league. Playoffs versus no playoffs is not an inherent part of soccer. It varies from league to league. Soccer isn't popular enough here to support extensive lower divisions. Actually, independent minor league sports in general are a risky proposition in the US. The only really succesful lower division teams are ones that are either owned by or affiliated with major league teams. MLS seems to be in the process of adopting a relationship with lower-division teams that is more akin to what exists in baseball, rather than European soccer. I think the main reason is that the early years of the league created some significant East-West rivalries, such as DC-LA. Cross-conference games are only 1/3 of the schedule now. As the league grows, they may become an even smaller percentage of the games. If the league ends up with 30 or so teams (like the other leagues here), the emphasis will likely be much more on conference and division games. I think the bigger problem is that the USOC isn't all that well-supported by many MLS teams. I'd say at least half the teams in MLS would happily pull out of USOC if they could easily do so. The tournament is a money-loser for most if not all MLS teams.
I agree with you on this point. I personally couldn't imagine "adopting" a college team, unless I had some sort of personal or family attachment to the team. Things like the Alabama-Auburn rivalry where the majority of fans of the two teams never actually attended either of those two schools makes no sense to me.
It kind of looks like the CCL in some ways. The early stages seem to exist primarily as a means to get your secondary players some minutes, as it won't require full strength. It's not until the last several rounds that you can get fans, players, even clubs very interested or invested. Most clubs seem to think "Oh, if we do alright, then cool" but nothing more intense than that. Some do, though. Seattle, I do have to say, has done a fantastic job of saying "this is important for us and for our fans." A lot of teams could learn from that. I think we've figured it out in KC, but next year's USOC and CCL attendance are just gonna have show whether or not I've got my finger on our pulse. Personally, I think multiple competitions, multiple title opportunities in one year is one of the very best things about soccer. Plus, selfishly... it means they play more. Which means I can watch more. So I'm down with that too. According to my friends from Alabama, you can't get away with not choosing a side.
Probably not as bad is you went to a small school (you can claim your alma mater as your D2 or D3 team and 'Bama or Auburn as your D1 team), but, yeah, it's probably a nightmare if you went to a big school elsewhere.
By PC support i mean, yee support your team but not harass the opposition much (from what i seen) It is possible so insult opposition without racially or homophobic slurs. Stereotypes of different cities can be used. for example we slag all the Dublin clubs for their rampant drug use, high unemployment and general thuggery. Well you mentioned division 2 or 3 clubs travelling great distances, the PDL development league have reasonable distances to travel but got no support despite having some very good up and coming players. Again European fans get behind local clubs even if they are shit.
Sure, but I was mainly addressing the claim that playoffs aren't traditional in football/soccer. They've always been very common throughout Latin American football.
No, they don't. Otherwise you'd see more Hampton & Richmond Borough jerseys in London than you would Manchester United jerseys. Or do you think all those people are transplanted Mancunians? PDL is a lower-than-third-division, amateur league consisting in large part of off-season college players. And its best attended teams have average attendance just as good as most of the teams in the League of Ireland, and in England they're comparable with the lower half of League Two and most of the Conference, much less the non-league teams that are the closest equivalent. Attendances are certainly competitive with most of the equivalent leagues in the world, such as the French National 2 or the Italian LND. If European fans are loyal to their local club no matter how terrible they are, please explain why last year York City FC drew 3,200 fans a game (fewer than the PDL's Des Moines Menace) while Blackburn Rovers, playing in a city half the size of York, drew more than 20,000. European fans aren't magical, loyal, Nick Hornby-esqe "proper" fans. Just like Americans, they are mostly bandwagoners and glory-chasers. And just like Americans, they mostly ignore the third and fourth divisions.
Cool. I just found out KC has a PDL team. Maybe I'll sneak to a few of those this summer. Add my coupla dollas to the cause.
Some PDL clubs don't have supporters groups because the club doesn't want them. They mostly draw players' parents and girlfriends and want to keep the atmosphere more towards that of youth soccer. Once, when a good friend of mine came in as a sub for the (now-defunct) Cleveland Internationals PDL team, I chanted his name as he came onto the pitch. I got a mix of angry and bewildered stares from the rest of the fans.