The Klinsmann Coaching thread, v1

Discussion in 'USA Men' started by bungadiri, Dec 28, 2011.

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  1. Zoidberg

    Zoidberg Member+

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    My point was simply to separate the Lahm book from any sort of analysis.
    Sensationalism in Germany does not sell, and is considered incredibly crass and disrespectful. Lahm got what he deserved.

    It does work both ways.

    He isn't a Buddha savior, and he isn't a proven coach in many respects that have been talked about endlessly.

    He also is high profile enough where he can affect change here that others would never even be allowed to even try. He is getting his chance and we'll see where it leads.

    As I've pointed out he has become much more rational, grounded in his proclamations recently, compared to all of the mob preach that we heard since the 2010 cup ended. That makes me feel better and more hopeful.

    He is trying to unify the youth Nats and senior team. Good.
    He has opened up more doors for training. Good.
    He is trying to get more players playing yearly, in multiple environs...good.

    Still question his understanding of our full pool but the Slovenia game made me feel a bit better there also.

    I think he rates the Mex league, and our guys there waaaaaaayyyyyyyy to highly compared to MLS, but that isn't that big of a deal...except for CB, where he wasted a ton of time, in the area that could really screw us come 2014.

    We'll see how he handles the Nats as we move forward, but I'm a show me guy, and his overall resume is not one that makes me blindly believe.

    I thought BB was a mistake, but he earned respect in quite a few areas.

    JK has to do the same. He has to earn it, and questioning is part of it.

    Germans in general, from family there, and business trips, love JK the image, as a coach...eh...we always had Loew...no worries.

    Earn it.
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  2. Bolivianfuego

    Bolivianfuego Your favorite Bolivian

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    Great post. The only reason I am not like you, and am willing to put myself a little more out there, and show some faith in the man.... is because he is teaching and looking at the game the way I was taught, and how I grew up playing the game.

    That's a little bit of self refleciton on my part, :p But that is why I back up his 'ideas' and 'vision'. It makes sense to me, and I hope it pays off.

    But like you say, we'll see.
  3. vaquero28

    vaquero28 Member

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    I also had posted the references to Jogi Loew and his qualifications as the supposed master tactician in the National team play. (but I deleted it) I too have relatives in Germany, Austria and one even has a German Trainer license in several sports(Auch Fussball) and several that played in regional BL teams in both countries. Lets face it it was Klinsmann who selected Jogi and even that was decried at the time. Jogi's qualification were also not overly beruehmt and top drawer. There is no denying that Klinsmann changed soccer in Germany for good and for the better. Was he a perfect choice( No one is) and is he a good choice for us? We'll see. I get a kick out of the analyses proffered here based on personal opinions. My point is that we have no idea what is going on behind the lines. It's like the duck that floats along a creek, demure and debonair but underneath it is paddling like mad....it is the part that is unseen of which we are unaware. Does anyone truly believe that his choices are made because he likes a player personally?? Does anyone think choices may just be based on recommendations by a multitude of advisors. AGAIN, lets assume that allowing a player only a one game trial is also not indicative of his talents. For a variety of reasons. He could have had a bad game (we all have off-days) He may be paired with individuals not complementary to either player. It goes on and on. Yet we in our infinite wisdom say he is incapable? He is wasting time.
    A good example is Ream. Yes he allowed a goal but how did that hapopen?? How many breakdowns led up to that cross? As far as position goes he was in front of the scorer, IE between the ball and the player. The goal was a fluke. It could have just as easily have missed the net as not. 90% of the time such interference by a defender results in a miss. At least that is how I remember it.
  4. Zoidberg

    Zoidberg Member+

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    While Loew was questioned it turned out to be his best move.

    What do we have? Vasquez. Eek. Maybe Herzog will pull through.

    As a NY fan Ream has had mental lapses and issues like the Panama one regularly. That is not an isolated incident. That's the issue with Ream. I always hear he'll stop doing it and I ask when? Still waiting. Europe will be great for him. He is gonna have to up his game mentally or sit. No more leniency.

    Many people here understand the game much more than you think. We get the whole possession thing believe it or not. There are just quite a few of us who understand it's demands and necessities and don't see it on our senior team yet.

    The senior team is meant for results when push comes to shove and we will see shortly how this pans out. It's not the place for a grand experiment, or philosophical faith.

    It would be amazing how much more faith I would have if we had Dempsey, LD, Fabian, Stevie C type brain, skill and ability times four.

    Faith happens when the actual ability is there, faith without it, or just hoping it happens isn't how I can think. I would be fired this PM if I started thinking like that.

    The pieces can really improve come the end of the cycle, but there is no guarantee. TR's gaffe was typical of his career so far, a lot of good and then give up a goal or a clear chance. Hell, he gave up two clear cut chances to Canada on very bad plays, but they were just to inept to capitalize. It's not like he was solid in that match, but is it OK because they didn't score?

    I've made my point very clear on TR. Said he wasn't ready after his rookie season, and Fiscal isn't ever gonna be good enough. Don't care what justifications some try and spin. He has never been quality or a high performer, that isn't changing miraculously for a 25 year old.

    CB has been JK's blunder so far. He should get on his hands and knees and be thankful for Gooch's recovery and Boca's longevity. The road he was heading towards was fraught with disaster.

    Edu and Beckerman? I said it early. They aren't good enough and as a combo there was zero chance. Following their careers would have told you thought. No genius needed there.

    Again, I'm much more positive than I was. Look forward to the Italy match.

    As long as our boy shows that he can learn that's all that matters. The signs are showing he can.


  5. soccerusa517

    soccerusa517 Member+

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    the key here is that Klinsmann is new. this isn't his 2nd or 3rd yr.

    fans can criticize but it's not time to jump off a cliff.
  6. Mr Martin

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    Perhaps you missed cleansheetbsc's point/link, which was that irate fans were calling for Bradley to go, after only his first two friendlies. That wasn't in BB's 2nd or 3d year, but basically right away.

    Meanwhile, the vast majority of folks criticizing JK are very, very far from jumping off any cliffs. We all want JK to succeed. We do hope he makes a few better choices in the coming months. The Slovenia match provided some hope that he is starting to figure out the US player pool.

    The only two posters I can think of who are strongly anti Klinsmann are GVPATS and Dignan. They seem to view JK as almost entirely PR talk, mixed with new-age mumbo-jumbo. Everyone else who has raised critiques simply has concerns, but remains hopeful that JK can get the job done.
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  7. Zoidberg

    Zoidberg Member+

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    The worst criticisms I have seen were mostly early on mocking the guys who ignored any reality, blamed BB for global warming, and thought any Euro would magically transform our team and our criminally under utilized top class talent.

    They deserved to bemocked, most have fled and changed handles, and I won't stop pointing that out. JK got caught up in it because he was the Euro coach.

    Then JK took indirect criticism because of people who simply were making up quite a few of JK's accomplishments compared to what actually happened. They needed to be edu-ma-kated.

    Guys like me criticized because he lobbied for the job for 14 mths shamelessly with mindless platitudes. Among them he knows the US player, and he will include all those poor ignored players, especially our trodden on, treated like peons, MexAmerican contingent. He has shown, and pretty much admitted, he didn't know the US player, and his gems, had been given shots, and just aren't good enough. It looks like he has learned a bit so I'm happy about that.

    Are there guys who will criticize no matter what? Yup.

    However, IMO, it's still nothing compared to the BB idiocy. Not even close.
    That was brutal and eventually annoying and ridiculous.
  8. Zoidberg

    Zoidberg Member+

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    Exactly. The lunacy of the non stop BB criticism was truly absurd.

    Facts and reality were ignored at every turn. Some folks need to go back and read to really get it. JK has endured little.
  9. soccerusa517

    soccerusa517 Member+

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    yeah i'll agree with you on that. Bob did get sh**ed on right away. And he started off really well too.
  10. Otergod

    Otergod Member

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    to be fair to GVPATS, he was never anti-JK and i would assume nothings changed. Although it's possible he built up a hate after arguing with others ;)
  11. Bolivianfuego

    Bolivianfuego Your favorite Bolivian

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    I actually felt kind of bad for BB, because he was techincally the 'interim' coach, the guy that was the 'substitute' teacher if you will. Many fans wanted a big name after his 'interiim' time was done. When that didn't happen, and it appeared our federation 'cheaped out', many fans were bitter and held onto that for a while.


    I always gave him a fair shake, but I always thought it shakey, how he went from assistant to FULL NT coach for the next 3ish years after that point (Then resigned for another year).

    I think he was a great coach, but we needed some change to get us past where he got us after 4 years. I actually was sad to see him go, because he actually showed some balls in his decisions in the gold cup, stepping out of his boundaries and trying out some things we would never see just a couple months back.
  12. Zoidberg

    Zoidberg Member+

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    Yeah, you suck.
  13. soccerusa517

    soccerusa517 Member+

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    Speaking on FSC at the NSCAA.
  14. vaquero28

    vaquero28 Member

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    Sure, go ahead, blame me again, :p it's all my fault....
  15. Otergod

    Otergod Member

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    really? Guy had 6 successful months as interim and he gets the full time gig and you thought it was shaky? The guy understood US soccer, the player pool and CONCACAF.

    Hired as interim in dec. 8th 2006 and was hired full time on May 15th 2007. In that time period Bob notched a 3-0-1 record with wins against Denmark's B-team[3-1] (Camp Cupcake), Mexico [2-0] and Ecuador [3-1] and a 0-0 tie against Guatemala. Outscoring his opponents 8-2 in 4 games. I dont see how any of this is reason to think it "shaky"

    We did need change... at the youth development level. Perhaps if USSF brought JK in as TD in 2006 and then manager in 2010 we'd have seen some major changes. Players who've developed 2-4 years under the system would be emerging as options for MLS/Europe/USMN and this transition wouldnt have been so rough

    Certainly is a big picture time for US fans. JK will probably not have as successful of a tenure as Bob, but i guess we must look past it to 2018 to see the changes undergoing. Which brings me back to my point i made just above. If USSF brought JK as TD in 2006 and these changes he and Reyna are making in the youth section would have started then, we might be seeing the effects of the change now.

    did i say that ;)
  16. vaquero28

    vaquero28 Member

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    didn't you?
  17. Brandinho

    Brandinho Member

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    I have been on a bit of a hiatus because my Alabama Crimson Tide (football) and UNLV Runnin Rebs (hoops) have been kickin ass and takin names over the past several months. So I'm probably just going to reiterate what a lot of the Klinsmann critics have to say about his selections. And yes, I do realize that some of this goes back to Bradley.

    I'm just getting tired of our coach(es) calling up anyone and everyone with any ties to the US and trying to pass them off as Americans. Now I get it, in a sense, they're Americans. But in a more important sense, I believe they are as foreign as they get.

    The US is a second tier team, which is fine, we'll always be decent and we have the potential as a country to become great. But I believe that calling in the foreign guys, more talented or not, is a bit counterproductive.

    As corny as it sounds, I believe the whole "American spirit" and "American Pride" variable plays A LOT into what this team is about. The team that beat Portugal and gave Germany all kinds of hell to the team that held Messi in Argentina in check, fought back against Slovenia and shocked the World against Spain; those teams had that extra bit a grit to them.

    A lot of those guys know where they came from, know what the American flag has represented for 2 and a half centuries, and above all else; realize that they are Americans. They may not be as talented, but they reached down and gutted it out, pretty or not. They played with American pride, that some of these guys from Germany, or the early generation Mexican-Americans just will never have.

    Nothing against these guys as players, and nothing against their mentality, they're just not really a fit. Its one thing if you're a Torres who chose the US early. But guys like Castillo and Jones and Johnson; they're really guys who would prefer to represent another country but took a root that they felt was easier to get them to a huge international stage like the World Cup.

    They're really out there just playing, and it's just not enough to just play. The mental aspect of what the jersey and what the team is about just doesn't, and won't exist in their minds. At least never enough to drive them for anything extra.

    That's what I believe at least.
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  18. vaquero28

    vaquero28 Member

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    I am an early generation American, Matter of fact born in another country and English is not my first language and everything you said regarding that a person like myself would not defend this country in any manner with heart and soul is plain ill conceived.
  19. Brandinho

    Brandinho Member

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    I'm not saying you wont, I'm saying they DONT. There are obviously exceptions, but the ones who aren't playing for their country are the ones who seemed to have "settled."

    Guys like Onyewu are different from guys like Edgar Castillo who didn't get what he wanted first and then decided to go for Plan B.
  20. Mr Martin

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    In the back of my mind, or maybe in my gut, I have a nagging concern that is similar to what you are stating. Maybe these new guys, who didn't grow up in the US, won't wear the US jersey with the same sense of pride and need to prove something to the world as many of our guys have.

    But I have to let them put up or shut up before I judge them on this issue.

    The track record of other Euro-raised Nat's isn't too bad. Dooley and Stewart wore the US kit has faithfully and with as much committment and pride as any US player ever. If guys like Johnson and Williams can match that, we will be fine.

    Of course, there have been others, like Regis and Wegerle, who were solid, capable pros for the USA, but I never got the impression they bought into the pride factor the way Dooley and Stewart did.

    We shall see. I'm perfectly willing to let them prove themselves.
  21. Brandinho

    Brandinho Member

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    That's what I get from Jermaine Jones. It's obvious his preference is Germany. He certainly hasn't been "as advertised." I know he saluted and everything and gave the crowd a nice rah rah, but he's missing the "it" factor. The extra juice that the US team needs to build that synergy that makes us a threat to anyone.
  22. Otergod

    Otergod Member

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    Personally i wasnt saying anyone. There were several posters he got into it with. And i'm not saying he has grown a disliking towards JK, simply joking that there may be a possibility after the arguments that filled up so many pages.
  23. Bolivianfuego

    Bolivianfuego Your favorite Bolivian

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    Very bold and brave of you. Thanks for being honest!


    I think this is something that plays a part in what Klinsi' is and brings to the table and why it isn't being accepted with open arms.

    I think there is def. resentment towards him being foreign and trying to drastically change US Soccer's identity.

    That is kind of messing with peoples heads, including those that have been in this 'game' in this country for ever.

    I am sure if Caleb Porter was the guy at the helm, or even Jason Kreis, it would be an easier pill to swallow.... (thats not to say either, the doubters don't have some merit on using his time with Bayern against him... it's too smokey though for me to write him off because of that. Too much he said she said)


    Thanks again Brandinho for posting that. Interesting way of looking at it, and I am like Mr Martin, and am willing to give these guys a chance. If they can bring the skills and grit to succeed in Klinsi's system, then so be it. But if they don't die for the shrit and play tehir balls off... then we got an issue.

    So far I haven't seen anything for concern IMO.
  24. Susaeta

    Susaeta BigSoccer Supporter

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    Klinsmann's comments at the NSCAA. Not that I put much into what he says (and I think a lot of his most vocal critics would lower their blood pressure if they paid less attention to what he says), but here is an approximation of his comments:

    - On direct attack vs. possession: Wants the team to transition into a more proactive style of play instead of reacting to opponents. He wants the team to attack quickly (find the transition out of the back and find the strikers were I think his words), but he wants them to learn to use possession when it makes sense. He intimated the challenge is getting all players on the same page.

    - On the transition in playing style: He repeatedly said he knows the transition will take time and that some of it will be painful.

    - On development: He mentioned that he has met with coaches in US Soccer and that his message is the as coaches are "simply just guides." Ultimately the goal is to get the players to play more, whether organized or unorganized. Soccer is a "inner driven" sport, and coaches should go play, express themselves, and learn how to sort things out on the field. "Express yourself" is a message from the youth to the national team.

    - On the challenge of the running the national team program: "I am not there to please everybody." He says he knows there will be setbacks and periods of heavy criticism, but that his job is to be ready for Brazil 2014. He accepts that others may have different approaches, but his job is to make the final decision on who and how the team will play.

    - On creating a depth chart: He says it is probably the same as other coaches. A lot of factors go into the depth chart, but he seemed to stress how players play together and their read, vision, and instincts for the game. He says the MLS players in camp, mentioning Agudelo by name, are hungry to break into the team.

    - On results: Says they have been frustrating. Mentioned Costa Rica, he felt they should have been up 3-0 by halftime. He said he had worked the players too hard before the game, and they were spent by halftime. Said he saw the same pattern against Ecuador. He says he will continue to schedule matches against "big nations" even if it means bad results in the short term.

    - On systems: He mentioned the team transitioned from a 4-3-3 to a 4-4-2. It seems like that may be the preferred formation in the next few games.

    I thought it was one of Klinsmann's more thoughtful interviews. Nothing in it that I thought was too controversial.
  25. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    TheHoustonHoyaFan Member+

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    This is quite strange. JJ is a US citizen and the son of a US serviceman. He celebrated his first US goal by saluting the troops and his father and you would question that?

    Maybe you should ask Chicharito about JJ's grit and commitment to the US :D

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgEM-7hDp1s&feature=related"]United States vs México Fight: Jermaine Jones vs Chicharito - YouTube[/ame]
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