The Klinsmann Coaching thread, v1

Discussion in 'USA Men' started by bungadiri, Dec 28, 2011.

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  1. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    TheHoustonHoyaFan Member+

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    In order to "keep the ball" we need to learn to possession pass it effectively which is one of JKs building blocks which you claim we don't have the player pool to implement or the time to learn.

    High pressure is another JK building block. It works best if on offense you build possession slowly from the back so that you properly maintain defensive unit shape. High line pressure is not a good component if you are a counter attack team because it compresses the field and provides less space to launch a counter.

    I'll repeat again, Klinsman has never advocated slow ball movement he has consistently stressed increasing speed and tempo of the attack as we move up the field.


  2. vaquero28

    vaquero28 Member

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    exactly, it is why I have trouble understanding some positions. I had thought that rapid ball movement where we receive pass and move is a function of rapidity causing our opponents to chase and never intimated that receive dawdle and pass were a function of possession under Klinsmann. Slow build up and slow possession would indicate a technical ability to hold the ball individually for a length of time and that is EXACTLY what we do not have the technical ability to do. Our strength is speed and athleticism so lets use that to move the ball around rapidly, up and down the field and make them chase us making sure when they get to us the ball is no longer there but on it's way to another one of our guys...Forwards are also our first line of defense and anyone who refused to begin pressure after a high loss would not be on my next roster.......No place for prima donas on our National teams.
    If the team moves up as a unit both offensive and defensive shape will be automatically kept intact. It is when lackadaisical commitment to tactics is not solid that holes emerge. Again the team is a unit not a collection of individual stars.
  3. england66

    england66 Member

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    The other team may have something to say about that...unless you plan on playing against 11 trash cans....
  4. vaquero28

    vaquero28 Member

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    OK, but for some reason I do not see your point!!

    You are right, but even trash cans are obstacles, like the donkey dicks used to practice dribbling. Last time I checked unless the other guys are on the field as well, there would be no need to pass or do anything at all. Ergo, no other guys, no game!!


  5. Bolivianfuego

    Bolivianfuego Your favorite Bolivian

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    Bingo. I couldn't have said it better myself.

    It's funny how he is against a 'possession' oriented style... but that is exactly what he is arguing for, and said BB's team lacked and why we lost the final!

    Yes, high pressure and fast ball movement is key. It is what i was always taught, the ball is always faster than a man moving. Move the ball around, get your opponent tired, then attack or do 2-3 quick 1-2s, and it will have the opponent lost, which will open up players for direct through balls.

    The key to this, like I've said before, is practice, and chemistry among the team.

    Yes, some will argue we don't have enough time to build this Chemistry.... but iMO it will come all along the way in qualifiers. Not just practice.

    It's all about holding and passing the ball at the right times, players making of fthe ball runs into space. Thats how it works.
    Right, that is why our guys have to have that confidence to not be intimidated like we were vs. Brasil the first time in the confederations cup.

    Look at how working our butts to the final changed the teams mentality. It's IMO alot of Psychology, not just personal skill.

    There is a reason why Argentina can't find their form from 2006/2007 copa america form. They lack the 'psychology' despite having the best players in the world wearing the albiceleste.
  6. Adiaga Two

    Adiaga Two Member+

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    That "confidence" must not be that hard to obtain, since that same team was beating Spain and going two goals up on Brazil a week later.
  7. Bolivianfuego

    Bolivianfuego Your favorite Bolivian

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    It just shows what a 'confident' USA can do, despite all the talk that we lack the talent.

    Soccer isn't just about talent, but how strong of a chain there is between a team, and how they 'feel' they are compared to their opponents.

    Soccer is just as much mental as physical.
  8. kokoplus10

    kokoplus10 Moderator Staff Member

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    We were missing Clark, Boca, and Benny.

    There was a phantom foul that lead to Brazil's first goal in that game.

    We went down a man cause of the Kljestan red card.

    Beasley had that ball go under his foot, and yet we hit the crossbar twice in that game.

    Confidence was not a problem, but decision making and luck certainly were.
  9. Bolivianfuego

    Bolivianfuego Your favorite Bolivian

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    Rewatch the game, look at how scard our guys were to hold on to the ball, or even try a 1-2 play. The only guy who had balls to stand up to the b rasilians after going down 1-0 was clint'.


    Everyone else was walking around scared Shitless.
  10. TheNearPost

    TheNearPost Member+

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    It's really NOT that hard to just keep the ball. What we've clearly seen under JK is allowing the opponents to settle and gain their shape, making it much more difficult to break them down.

    I don't think that pressing and counter-attacking don't go together. The whole thing about less space makes no sense. The whole point of pressing is that you're catching the opponent out of shape, and exploiting the spaces. That's a lot of the principle of counter-attacking - catching the opponent out of shape when you win the ball back. The difference is that with pressing, you're already high up the field, making it even more dangerous. If anything, it makes a counter-attacking team as good a team as any to press high up the field.

    I think the issue is that with Juergen, he's increasing the tempo as you get it up the field. Under Bob, you moved the ball quickly right out of the gate. Not letting the opposition settle.

    You really didn't read my post did you?

    I laid out the difference between a tactic and a style. You say I want possession as a style, but that I am against it. I CLEARLY said that I want possession as a TACTIC ( in big bold letters, special for you), and you want possession/patient build-up as a STYLE. I clearly don't think we have the ability to do that. You clearly do.

    It's not even a matter of amount of ability. It's the pedigree of ability. For instance, Jose Torres might be better at possession than someone like Michael Bradley, but Bradley is probably the better player ( to most people). He does what he does better than how Torres does what he does.
  11. kokoplus10

    kokoplus10 Moderator Staff Member

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    Stop. Yours is an opinion while mine are facts.

    I could just as easily say that the 11 guys on the field for Brasil were so much more talented than our players that they simply made them look bad.
  12. Bolivianfuego

    Bolivianfuego Your favorite Bolivian

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    Yea, thats what everyone did say lol.

    Until we came out balls to the wall in the final!
  13. kokoplus10

    kokoplus10 Moderator Staff Member

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    I agree 100% with this.
  14. Bolivianfuego

    Bolivianfuego Your favorite Bolivian

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    You'll get what you want out of Klinsi's style, we'll have a more 'possession' based tactic team once they get a better hang of it.

    That too will spurn the counterattacks which use our athletic ability too!
  15. kokoplus10

    kokoplus10 Moderator Staff Member

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    If that's your opinion fine, but please refrain from parading around here saying that the U.S. was "scared" of Brasil and that's why they lost that game.

    Frankly that statement disgusts me. It also doesn't take any of the facts of how that game played out into consideration.
  16. TheNearPost

    TheNearPost Member+

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    Sure, more possession, but a hell of a lot less goals from what I've seen, meaning keeping possession to hold a lead is pretty pointless. And we've hardly improved at all. How do you expect us to do this against Italy when we couldn't/could barely get it done against teams like Ecuador, Honduras, and Costa Rica? (the latter two of which we will be facing in World Cup Qualifying)
  17. gmonn

    gmonn Member+

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    Meh, how about feeling inferior. Reading Donovan's quotes after that final about how the US was up 2-0 even though they were getting "slaughtered," what clubs the Brazilians play at, how they're just much better athletes, etc, and Dempsey's weird antics on the ball, shows you our two best players didn't have their head in the best place against that opponent.

    And unfortunately it got confirmed in the worst way, where we couldn't win the second half with two goals spotted to us.
  18. kokoplus10

    kokoplus10 Moderator Staff Member

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    No athlete goes into an important game allowing themselves to feel like they don't have a chance of winning.

    Teams can respect their opponents. Players are 100% aware of gulfs in talent. This is nothing new.

    The U.S. has upset big names before. The players know they always have a chance.

    The idea of someone thinking the U.S. was scared or felt "inferior" (semantics) makes me want to throw up.
  19. Bolivianfuego

    Bolivianfuego Your favorite Bolivian

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    No surprise there, the two of you don't think the US mens Nat team can play a more 'sophisticated' (just putting it how many who think like this) style, because of lack of skills.... in your opinion.

    Fact is, Possession isn't something only top tier' NT's or players possess or have the ability to play.

    It's not something hard to do, it is all done through basics, trapping, quick 1 touch passing, control, vision (looking up before you recieve the ball to think 2 steps ahead or even before you get it, on where to get the ball... not rocket science), etc.

    We'll never know unless we interview the players... but watching their reactions, how guys like Landon donovan and Mike Bradley were coughing up the ball or clearing it out, or just doing 'impossible' through balls to player that werent even there... showed me that they just wanted to get rid of it.

    Its what players do when they are out of their leageu and want to give it away without causing themselves any harm in the process.

    The only guy willing to hold on to the ball, dribble, or do short quick passing on the ground was Clint. And he was given SHIT for it on here for it.

    For right now. Go try something new and we'll judge you on it, based on how you can master it over your first couple of times.

    It takes time for things to come together, whether its your first time putting together a car motor, assembling the short block, attaching the head, putting together a cars suspension, interior, brakes, etc. You're going to strip bolts, you're going to look bad trying it out for the first couple of times... but with anything... it all gets better with repitiion and practice.

    The first handful of times, you're going to look like shit. Fact.

    Posters are too impatient to see results. If we aren't running circles through a more possession oriented style game with 7 games in, people start flipping out.

    Fact of the matter is, this will take time. I believe we'll have it together once things get serious, but after 6 months? Not quite.... We understand you already don't have faith on possession as a style.... but to possess the ball and what you want for our team to hold the ball better, and not cough it up like you said was our biggest issue.... it will take time for our guys to gain chemistry amongst each other, and to understand this style bette,r to have comfort with it.

    Were we all great lovers the first time we were with a woman? :p
  20. Bolivianfuego

    Bolivianfuego Your favorite Bolivian

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    Have you ever played against a team you knew on paper was 10x the team you were?

    If not, go give it a try. Your brain will play tricks on you, you'll mess up on the most simplest things because you're 'shaking' scared of what they've done to other teams, or their reputations.

    Confidence goes a long way/ or can really hurt you if it gets to you.

    Especially going down early, that can totally kill a teams confidence.
  21. TheNearPost

    TheNearPost Member+

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    Here's my issue. You say it will take time for these guys to learn this style. My question is, why does this current crop of players have to learn this style at all? Why don't we just implement this style at the youth level and THEN reap the benefits? You keep saying it will take time. I'm aware of that. EVERYONE IS. I'm saying that it's going to take even LONGER if we try doing this at the senior level with guys who have been trained to do something completely different, and it's going to have even worse consequences. It makes PERFECT sense to just train players to play whatever way Juergen wants them to play at the YOUTH level, while playing whatever style fits the senior team at the moment, then reaping the benefits once these players become good enough for the senior national team. The senior national team shouldn't be used to train a whole style. It should be used to test certain tactics, formations, where players play best, and the mettle of certain players in preparation for Qualifying, regional tournaments, and the World Cup.

    We're gonna keep going on and on if we discuss whether this crop of players is good enough at the style Juergen wants to play eventually. We clearly have heavily differing opinions on that. The above paragraph is something that concerns me more.
  22. vaquero28

    vaquero28 Member

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    Well, lets see. So instead of trying to implement a type of soccer proven to be more effective than the style we have been playing you are advocating the status quo. Lets get into 2014 playing the same old same old bunker, long ball, hopeful counter game but advocate tweaks in that system to make it more effective.?
  23. Bolivianfuego

    Bolivianfuego Your favorite Bolivian

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    I've said this before, the reason why he wants our NT to play this way, is so the youth that move up over these next 2 years, will assimilate easier to the mens team than they would if they were playing a WHOLE different style than they were used to at the lower levels.


    Thats what I don't get. If we want to rely on our youth for the future.... why not make it as cushy' for them for when they get good enough to play and represent the mens side? Look at chile, in their last qualifiers, their game changer players were a bulk from their killer U20 side back then.

    We will rely on youth, why not make it easier for them to adjust when they move up?

    That right there is why you don't agree, and probably don't see it my way. I disagree, with what is bolded. I think our guys do play on club teams that play possession soccer, more so than we play at the national level. Many of our guys that are on our starting 11. Dempsey, Donovan, Shea, F. Johnson, Chandler, Torres, Bradley, Jones, Beckerman, Gooch, Boca', Agudelo, Altidore, etc.

    These guys all play touch and go soccer, or have the ability. The weakest link is probably Boca... but he even shows that he can pass it out the back calmly with just a different implementation on him. He's shown it so far under Klinsi'.

    IMO, you may disagree here.... but We have gotten as far as we could wtih BB who's bread and butter was the style you speak of. Fact of the matter is, changing tactics, focusing more on possession is what we are doing now.

    We still can play long air through balls and using quick counterattacks now. Nothing has changed, just that we are trying to play more possession style soccer.

    Right now that is the focus, but once things start clicking, labels don't matter, and with just better possession under our belts, things will get better.

    Fact of the matter is, there is no true gameplan. Things change in any moment, depending on the opponent.

    When we played slovenia, we used our old formation and looked like BB's team... but there was one diffference, our possession, passing was better and more 'crisp' technique wise. This was in europe too, which is impressive.


    But that is it, you see our players differently than I, and Klinsi'. Your concern is real, but we'll see how things turn out.

    IMO BB got us as far as we could do in that style. In his defense, it got us pretty far.... but changing things now, even though may hurt us in the beginning, will give us a higher possible outcome than BB's style ever could.

    This will show in the 2014 WC.
  24. TheNearPost

    TheNearPost Member+

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    Whether or not the style is more effective is relative to the side who plays it, isn't it?

    I've said it before and I'll say it again, Bob Bradley and the USA hardly ever scored goals through the long ball approach. None of the goals we scored against Brazil, Spain, or Egypt were long balls. Neither were the two goals we scored against Mexico in the 2011 Gold Cup final. You really hardly EVER see us score goals from long balls.

    We used long balls, or "bunker balls", when we wanted to keep the game the way it was. When we wanted to manage the game. We would boot it long up the field, reorganize our lines, and prepared for the next attack. That became a lot harder to do when our defense suffered massive injuries, and we were forced to bring in Jonathan Bornstein. Losing Charlie Davies didn't help either. It probably would have made more sense to use possession, for the sole purpose of holding the lead and managing the game, NOT FOR ATTACK. That way, our opponent has less of the ball, and less chance to expose our weak defense. I've said this time and time again in this post and the last and it hasn't set in yet. I'm really not sure why.
  25. vaquero28

    vaquero28 Member

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    here is the bigger issue. If we cannot hold the ball via possession on the attack how on earth do you propose holding it via possession when the attacking team is providing pressure in every area of the field to press regaining the ball and press for a goal? The logic escapes me totally? Possession is possession no matter which direction we are going?! Either way they will have to learn team possession. Which means passing, move into space, receiving and passing and move into space.
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