I saw the Frontline episode of that title last night. It's an in-depth look at Bush and his best bud, JC. Did anyone else see it? If you didn't and you'd like to, here's a link to the site: www.frontline.org You can watch it if you've got broadband.
This is scary stuff. I don't know what's worse - a president who is in thrall to the evangelical Christian movement for purely political reasons, or a president who's actually one of them. OK, forget it, I already know the answer.
Yes, I watched about 45 minutes of it. Then I got a serious case of the willies and turned off the television. I've mentioned this in a couple of other threads but I found that show chilling in the extreme. I always thought that his religious schtick was designed to pander to his base. Sadly that's not the case - he really means this crap. He really thinks he's on a mission from God.
I thought it was frightening and infuriating the first time I watched it earlier this year. Then I read the comments on the Frontline web site, and I realized what "frightening" really is. But even so, after watching it, I still have this lurking suspicion that he's not really that spiritual of a person. Given that Laura was going to leave him if he didn't give up drinking (& drugs, most likely) it's reasonable to conclude that Dubya jumped into this in an effort to appease her and keep his family intact. And once he realized that it had value in business and politics, he ran with it. No proof, just a thought. I wouldn't put it past him.
This actually says quite a bit about his decision making, and even more about his personality. Hell, maybe if he'd gotten his predecessor in Texas to take him to a couple of meetings we wouldn't be in Iraq. Just a thought, FWIW.
Mike, if you saw the program you'd realize the above isn't too far from the truth. Or have reason to suspect so, anyway. Nobody begrudges him his belief in god. What we begrudge (and yes, I'm speaking for everyone here) is when his religious beliefs dictate American policy. Check out the Compassion Capital Fund - Jews, Muslims and Hindus need not apply - for proof.
How can I get riled up to carry on about Bush's personal Crusade when I'm spitting my drink on the screen?
Yeah, that pissed me off. Faith-based social programs. Fine. But don't say "faith-based" when you mean "christian-based." I can't believe that fund hasn't been challenged in court yet. Mike, I don't doubt that his religious convictions are sincere but that's the part that scares me. He can't seem to separate his spiritual life from his public life and while that's a fine feature in a preacher and not-too-terrible in most people it's not a good thing for the President of the United States to put the Bible ahead of the Constitution.
Apparently, Bob Woodward on 60 Minutes told how Bush said that George Herbert Walker Bush was "the wrong kind of father to ask for advice." So he asked a "higher Father." In realistic terms, this was GHWB telling GWB not to invade Iraq. But GWB ignored him. Great, but could this possibly have been expressed in a creepier, more disturbing way?
And this is one of the most blatant examples. While I do believe in the power of stressing abstinence as opposed to simply birth control to teens... I have a real problem about using tax dollars to that end.
I just finished watching the program, and it did give me a bit of the willies as well, though for different reasons than those listed above. First, I don't think he became a born again Christian to get his wife back or to win the Presidency, but I obviously don't know him too well or follow him too closely on religious matters to speak for him. To me, it seems too pervasive to be calculated. Some of the topics covered did seem calculated, but that's every politician to a degree. I think he honestly believes a lot of what he says, if not all of it. You don't quote the gospel of John verbatim as a casual religious aside, and I think he believes it when he says it. I am not against him being religious or having a religious president, but when he says things like "I believe God wanted me to be President", I get a bit nervous. What if Kerry wins in November? Doesn't that mean that God now wanted Kerry to be President? It just seems a bit self-centered, that God could have picked anyone to be president, but "picked" him. Especially unsettling when it's him who is letting us in on God's decision. One of the interesting things brought up in the program is Bush's attention to Faith Based initiatives. Congress voted his moves down, so he passed an executive order and set up a faith based office in 7 executive departments. What I found unsettling was that only one of them tracked the money it spent, and that one listed that it had given over $ 100 million to christian groups, but none to Jewish or Muslim groups that had applied. I didn't do the research, I am not saying that is 100% accurate or even indicative of the other 6 agencies, but it is unsettling. I don't know what some of those Jewish/Muslim applications were for, who knows, but those groups have taken 1.2 billion dollars of US tax money and passed it out to these faith based community groups. As a Christian, does that seem fair to you Mike? I'm not baiting, I'm just asking. Either way, the government should be tracking all of that money and not just part of it. As to the rest of the stuff brought up in the show, it was stuff I knew already, or at least it didn't come as a shock. The thing that bothers me is this: What is the role of religion in a democracy? To me, religion exists as a blueprint for the believers of that religion to live their life by. You believe in god, you don't, whatever, but if you do it gives you something to believe and a way to live your life if you choose to. The government exists- in part- to protect the rights of those believers to exist peacefully and without persecution. The government does not exist to favor one religion over another (says the constitution), it doesn't not exist to "spread" religion, and it doesn't not exist to ask to impose that blueprint on the lives of all of it's citizens. An atheist, jew or muslim can't get elected president in this country. That makes me a bit nervous. You want to say that is the will of the people? Okay, but it makes me a bit nervous that the government is in theory separated from religion but no one can head the government without the backing of religious groups. Seems a bit contrary to the intention behind the constitution. America, to me, seems different than other democratic western countries in this respect.
Has GHWB given up on his son already? GHWB is a realist, yet GWB almost a religion fanatic. On other hand, a liberal president would never sign something like this.
Oh I'm sorry, what I meant to say was "nobody has ever used Christianity as a way to succeed in politics or business. Never ever ever." Sorry you misinterpreted that. I would agree with Matrim in that it's not likely he's bluffing because it's so pervasive, but as Barb says that's what is so frightening to those of us who don't see a dogmatic belief in Christ the Savior as the only path to eternal salvation. I'd almost prefer to think he's bluffing because nobody with as much power as the President should ever let fundamentalist Christian prophecy guide his actions.
Well,y'all seem to want some fodder to chew on as to GWB's relationship to Christ. Just as he has no idea what my spiritual path is, I don't know his. But, I found this post interesting, and will answer some of jamison's questions (btw, if you're into genealogy, jamison, let me know!). Agreed. Too much is demanded of the "non-casual Christian" to do it just for kicks & giggles. Okay, put yourself in the shoes of anyone who truly believes that the Bible is the absolute word of God. If so, you know that your very days, the very hairs on your head are known before you are even born. Therefore, yes, God does want him to be president - now. He may lose in November, and if so, it's because God wants Kerry (or Nader) to be president at that time. And GWB will understand that - happily or unhappily. I know that I am supposed to be where I am right now, but it took me a while to understand why. Am I thrilled about it? No. Will it change? Yes. And I can only hope for the better! Without knowing the details, we're just spitting in the wind, aren't we? FWIW, I'm against prayer in school, as you have no idea what type of prayer will be said. I'm all for having a moment of meditation or silence or whatever, though. And a Christian could get elected in Iraq? India? Japan? I know that BigSoccer is populated by a much more diverse group than most, and that is both wonderful and yet unrealistic in ways. But the last statistic I read was that the United States was 84% Christian, and then the various other religions, and people tend to vote for what/who they know. Contrary to the Constitution? Probably. But so was the owning of slaves by so many of the Founding Fathers. So - have fun tearing this apart.
Here we go again with the 'at least we're better than [insert some third-world country]' bull. I mean, surely, if you can find an example of how things are worse somewhere else, all dissent should cease. Cause, you know, if you don't like it here, you can always go back to where you came from. Oh, and India has a Muslim president and now a Sikh prime minister. The country is 80% Hindu. Also, if it was up to me, Christians couldn't hold elected office in US either. It's not up to me, though.
So that makes it ok? We should all just accept that if you're black, jewish, muslim or a woman, some jobs, like that of the president of this country are closed to you? You know, this is pretty much what race theorists like bell hooks talk about. Rabid racists are a minority and they're not the problem. It's people like you who are the problem. People willing to sit on the sidelines and say it's not their problem and there's nothing that can be done. You know, "realistic" people. I may not have the answers to complicated socio-cultural problems in this country, but at least I have that uncomfortable feeling in the pit of my stomach, telling me something isn't right and I shouldn't keep my mouth shut about it. And of all people, I have the most invested in the status quo. I'm a white male, I'm 21 years old, of anglo-saxon protestant extraction, college educated and worth almost 7 figures. Hell, if anything, I should be hoping our scoiety gets more intolerant and more discriminating. I should, except for the part that even my atheist sense of morality tells me something about this is wrong.
You don't know what you're talking about. She's describing the way that it is, not the way that it should be. You probably don't remember when JFK was elected. (Well, neither do I but that's not the point.) The point is that it was a big fat hairy deal that he was freakin' Catholic!!!! You might have money but you have no class. Otherwise you wouldn't be talking about how much money you have. Tacky tacky tacky.
Yeah, and we haven't had a Catholic run for president again until now. 43 freaking presidents and 1 wasn't a protestant. Shining record, I must admit. Typical. There were about 15 threads on this board about economy in the last year where people talked about how much they make. Of course, they're mostly middle-class, so it's fine. I come from an affluent family, so I shouldn't talk about money. See, this is exactly why I abhorr money to begin with. It's a actually a big deal to people like you, so there are social taboos associated with it. But whatever, this is off topic.