The Health Care Reform Effort - Part Deux

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by appoo, Jan 21, 2010.

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  1. appoo

    appoo Member+

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    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/21/health/policy/21health.html

    “I would advise that we try to move quickly to coalesce around those elements of the package that people agree on,” Mr. Obama said in an interview on ABC News, notably leaving near-universal insurance coverage off his list of core goals.

    “We know that we need insurance reform, that the health insurance companies are taking advantage of people,” Mr. Obama said. “We know that we have to have some form of cost containment because if we don’t, then our budgets are going to blow up, and we know that small businesses are going to need help so that they can provide health insurance to their families. Those are the core, some of the core elements to this bill.”

    ----

    I think it's safe to say that the current Bill is Dead, D-E-D, Dead. I think Obama learned a lesson on Tuesday night and Wednesday. America is obviously concerned about health care, but Americans are afraid of a massive bill that they can't understand. A pared down bill, that's designed to START the reform of health care in America - is something that I think can win the support of most Americans, forcing the Republicans to join in the effort.


  2. tomwilhelm

    tomwilhelm Member+

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    Re: The Health Care Reform Effert - Part Deux

    You sure that 3341 posts was enough for the first thread? :p
  3. appoo

    appoo Member+

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    Re: The Health Care Reform Effert - Part Deux

    MORE than enough. Besides, that just talked about why the Dems suck at passing laws.

    I'd like a thread to talk about the actual reform.
  4. Dr. Wankler

    Dr. Wankler Member+

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    Re: The Health Care Reform Effert - Part Deux

    "Effert"?

    Did someone from Coakley's campaign start moderating bigsoccer?


  5. tomwilhelm

    tomwilhelm Member+

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    Re: The Health Care Reform Effert - Part Deux

    Sounds like a plan to me.

    Question 1: In light of the results of the special election in MA, what are the current legitimate options?
  6. Howard Zinn

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    Re: The Health Care Reform Effert - Part Deux




    Nice to see Barack have this little epiphany a year too late. :rolleyes:
  7. Chris M.

    Chris M. Member+

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    Re: The Health Care Reform Effert - Part Deux

    I was with you right up to the last eight words.

    They will fight to keep Obama from getting anything, even if Obama simply proposes the "80% we all agree on" that was the circulated talking points a month ago. I hope that my cynicism is unfounded and that ASF is right that there will be a love fest -- at least with some moderate republicans -- but I ain't holding my breath.

    I still say that the way to go is to revise the bill quickly to make it stronger, get it on the floor for a cloture vote and then force the bastards into a good old fashioned filibuster and when they cave (which will probably take a day or two) pass it with the simple majority they will have.

    When you start counting the majority votes, you can also tell asshats like Ben Nelson to take a leap.
  8. appoo

    appoo Member+

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    Re: The Health Care Reform Effert - Part Deux

    :D


    I think if you introduce a Bill that did the following it would win general support:

    1. Curtail some of the nastier Health Insurance practices such as dropping you if you get cancer, capping pay outs, and denying coverage.

    2. offer subsidies to those that can't afford healthcare

    3. offer help to small businesses to help them pay for health care for their employees

    4. take away the monopoly exemption for Health Insurance Companies

    5. Open up competition across state lines

    6. Introduce a panel of experts from all over the Health Care Experts, empowered to launch projects to analyze anything they want and introduce rule changes if they want based on those results, that would be submitted to congress - all based on ways to reduce the costs of health care. This was probably the best idea that was in the original reform, that got dropped for whatever reason.
  9. appoo

    appoo Member+

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    Re: The Health Care Reform Effert - Part Deux

    The only way the Republicans have power, is if public is afraid and uncertain about what Obama suggests. If Obama - and btw I do mean Obama - introduces a bill that most Americans like - and to do that it has to be simple and straightforward - the Republicans will have no choice. They're basically fair weather fans. You notice they STILL won't attack Obama personally? At least the elected officials? That's because they read polls that say that a ridiculously high number of Americans like and respect Obama, and even a strong majority view him as a good leader.
  10. Chris M.

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    Re: The Health Care Reform Effert - Part Deux

    Oh, I don't know . . . . maybe one option would be to govern?

    I am already sick and tired of this ********ing MA election. When Obama took office, the dems had already picked up a couple of unexpected seats and were still at 58 and Lieberman. It wasn't until Spector switched that they hit the "magic" 60 seats. That was never magic. Didn't matter whether the dems had 55 or 62. As we have seen in the health debate, there are plenty of moderate to conservative democrats and any legislation was going to need support where you can't count on it or a plan to get past cloture.

    As John Stewart correctly noted, Bush never had anywhere near an 18 seat majority and he got whatever the ******** he wanted. Even when his popularity was in the 20s. It was insane.

    Well, the democrats have the majority and its a bigger one then any party has had since the 1920s I believe.

    So, this "poor us" attitude because of Scott Brown is perhaps the most pathetic display I have seen in politics . . . . EVER. The democrats now sit at a higher majority then most people dreamed possible around July of 2008. There was great hope of increasing the majority they had but very few thought they would sniff 60. Were people throwing up their hands at that point and saying, "wow. Too bad. We will have a good president in the WH but we won't be able to get anything done because we will only have a 112 seat majority."

    Here's a legitimate option. Get off your asses. Get in a room. Create a clear, coherent message and agenda that can garner public support. Then govern.

    One thing that has amazed me for 15 years now. Love it or hate it, the Republicans came up with a "contract for America" and it worked. People got it. They felt like Republicans had a clear planning going forward.

    Why on earth can't democrats do the same thing. ALL of the policies should be tied together as jobs/economic positive items on an agenda with a catchy phrase to give Americans a sense that democrats have a purpose in governing.

    Health reform = jobs. Clean energy/cap and trade = jobs. Education = jobs. Regulating financial markets = stability and . . . jobs.
  11. VFish

    VFish Member+

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    Re: The Health Care Reform Effert - Part Deux

    7. Give individuals the same tax benefits that employers receive.
  12. Chris M.

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    Re: The Health Care Reform Effert - Part Deux

    Well, I do agree that this is Obama's time to shine or slink into history. But, personally, I don't think republicans "will have no choice." More correctly, I think that they have "no choice" right now. They have to oppose Obama and they must have him fail. That was their strategy on November 5, 2008. They basically had two options back then. Recognize that they had royally ********ed up and then fix their party by participating in the way of constructive opposition, or obstruct everything.

    Someone posted in the other thread that they voted in lockstep on a cloture motion 40-60 on a bill that then passed 97-0. That says all you need to know.

    If they shift course NOW, just 9 months and change before the midterm elections, they will lose their tea-bagging angst and their base will stay home in droves. Obama is a socialist. A marxist. He wants to destroy America. That is the message and there is no way it changes even if Obama presents things where you THINK they have no choice but to support it. If 3, 4, 5 moderate Republicans jump on board with a nice pared down plan that we all agree on, people will get the impression that things are getting done. That our politicians are looking out for people and not interests. If that happens, Republicans lose big time.
  13. stanger

    stanger BigSoccer Supporter

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    Re: The Health Care Reform Effert - Part Deux

    7. Make the plan for ALL Americans, including union workers and elected officials.

    Why do some groups get to opt-out? I have said before, force our congresspeople to have to use the same system they are going to force on us. Can someone explain why this is somehow unfair?
  14. appoo

    appoo Member+

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    Re: The Health Care Reform Effert - Part Deux

    what plan?
  15. Metrogo

    Metrogo Member

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    Re: The Health Care Reform Effert - Part Deux

    First, I agree totally with everything you have said on this thread. Can you explain what you are talking about here a bit more. I actually don't understand what can and can't happen now. Why would the Republicans cave in a fillibuster?
  16. stanger

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    Re: The Health Care Reform Effert - Part Deux

    ANY plan. Whatever it is that they come up with should be for EVERYONE. I have a hard time believing it would be difficult to pass healthcare reform if every congressperson would go back to their constituents and tell them "This is a good plan because my family is going to be using it as well."

    This whole thing is too much left vs. right and not enough good plan vs. bad plan. Look at the last few posts. It's more about what you can slip past or what you can force the other side to do. Come up with a good plan, present it to the people as one that is fair for everyone and that every one will be using it equally.

    This isn't rocket science.
  17. appoo

    appoo Member+

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    Re: The Health Care Reform Effert - Part Deux

    I never suggested any single, unifying plan of health care that everyone has to take part in. IMO we should have a plethora of choices. One of the main issues with our current system is a lack of options when it comes to health care.

    I'm not trying to slip anything past anyone. Health care reform should be about A) making it accessible, B) regulating the bad practices of the industry, and C) making it affordable. B is easy, A & C are going to difficult and probably should be done over time.
  18. VFish

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    Re: The Health Care Reform Effert - Part Deux

    This is true only if a plan is mandated on us. Personally I want to see a plan that allows plenty of individual options. Part of the problem in the original debate is the Dems were trying to craft a one size fits all approach.
  19. ElJefe

    ElJefe Moderator Staff Member

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    Re: The Health Care Reform Effert - Part Deux

    1. Wrap up the House-Senate conference bill and get it passed by both houses and on the President's desk before Scott Brown is confirmed and seated. That seems exceptionally unlikely to happen, and both Obama and Reid have signalled that they aren't terribly interested in trying that.

    2. Have the House simply pass the Senate bill verbatim. The Senate then needs to take no further action, and the bill goes to the President's desk. This appears to be an option because Pelosi's got 40 extra votes here, and while a lot of the more liberal Democratic representatives would bail, some Blue Dogs who voted against the House bill would come on board, since they've already signalled that the Senate bill is more to their liking. And again, Pelosi's got a bit of wiggle room.

    3. Start back over and do everything piecemeal through reconciliation, as folks here are advocating.

    Personally, I think that #2 is the best option. Yes, the Senate bill has many, many things wrong with it, but it is a starting point. There are ways to fix its many problems through smaller bills. Plus, it pretty much blunts part of the Brown campaign's message: "Oh, you want to kill healthcare reform? Too late."

    I think that #3 is in effect a capitulation, because you're starting over with a contentious issue nine months before the entire House and one-third of the Senate is up for re-election. Do I think that if you scrap this effort, the Congress is going to want to restart this process? Hell no. And the Democrats get killed at the ballot box for not being able to do jack or shit, just like they did in '94.

    Pass the Senate bill, get your stake in the ground, and start working on fixing it where it needs fixing. Seriously, we are one lousy roll call vote in the House from having a healthcare reform bill passed, as imperfect as it might be. If Democrats want to kill it now, then they deserve to be punished badly at the ballot box. And you know, they will get punished a lot more harshly than if they do pass the Senate bill.
  20. Knave

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    Re: The Health Care Reform Effert - Part Deux

    You do realize that is and remains the point of that thread? I titled it quite deliberately.
  21. VFish

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    Re: The Health Care Reform Effert - Part Deux

    Pelosi has already announced she doesn't have the votes to pass the Senate bill so #2 is a no go.
  22. argentine soccer fan

    argentine soccer fan Moderator Staff Member

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    Re: The Health Care Reform Effert - Part Deux

    I think the whole idea some people have of Republicans as a monolithic group are unfounded. Have you heard the names that right wing radio personalities use to refer to the moderate Republicans in congress? They hate them about as much as they hate Democrats.

    It's true that many Republicans will not cooperate on health care reform, for either ideological or partisan reasons, but there are some moderates who would cooperate if they get a plan that is reasonable and incorporates some of their ideas.

    What would it take to get moderate republicans to join the effort? I think this statement by Olympia Snowe should give the Democratic leadership some clues.

    http://snowe.senate.gov/public/inde...Issue_id=d694210e-a855-b510-43be-f20b134100cf

    She goes on to state her objections to the plan that emerged, and I think they are very reasonable objections, and the Democratic leadership would do well to pay attention to them. In fact, a number of posters here -some of them very liberal- have placed similar objections to the bill that emerged.

    This stands out to me, as a small business owner:

    Nice to know that at least somebody is paying attention to the SBE Council. Democratic leaders would do well to do likewise. Let them pass a reform bill that satisfies the concerns of organizations like the SBE Council and NFIB, and I'm sure they will get some moderate Republicans who are friends of small business to work with them.
  23. ElJefe

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    Re: The Health Care Reform Effert - Part Deux

    In that case, the Democrats will have been responsible for killing healthcare reform, and they deserve whatever electoral scorn gets heaped upon them.

    They have the majority in the House. They can have a straight party-line vote and have a healthcare reform bill on the President's desk tomorrow. If they can't, if they don't, they can't blame Scott Brown or the Massachusetts electorate or the teabaggers or anyone else.
  24. Chris M.

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    Re: The Health Care Reform Effert - Part Deux

    Well, under the current rules, they won't. All they have to do is send Harry an email saying, "we are filibustering" and its tied up. Under Senate Rule 22, Harry Reid CAN make them physically filibuster. 24/7. Mr. Smith goes to Washington style. Similarly, Democrats would have to keep a sufficient number nearby the Senate to convene within a few minutes.

    I suspect that if this were the case, the Republicans who said that they would fight to the death and then caved so that they could catch a morning flight on Christmas eve, probably don't have the sack to maintain a filibuster for days, weeks, months at a time.

    The number of filibustered bills has exploded since they changed the rules. Change them back and let's see what happens. In addition to the physical toll of doing an actual filibuster, public pressure would mount as attention would be turned squarely on the party of NO blocking reform.
  25. FLFootballFan

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    Re: The Health Care Reform Effert - Part Deux


    They've had the votes all this time.............I concur with your assessment, which then makes me think why they've blamed non-democrats for anything since Obama took the White House. The answer to my own question is: Same old corrupt politicians trying to blame others for their inability to sell people what's better for the politicians and not for the people.
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