The God Delusion: A Logical Fallacy?

Discussion in 'Spirituality & Religion' started by Solid444, Feb 24, 2009.

  1. peledre

    peledre Member

    Mar 25, 2001
    Sioux Falls, SD
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That was at the bar, though I did have an interesting convo with a friend after a vaporizer session a couple months ago.

    We were talking about what conditions would need to be present for some creature to evolve the ability to travel unprotected in space. We ended up with something that resembled the Rock Monster from Galaxy Quest.

    That, was some good smoke.
     
  2. Pirru

    Pirru Member+

    Sep 21, 2004
    Club:
    CD Chivas de Guadalajara
    you're alright Pedro

    I stopped caring about God some time ago

    I now have my freedom

    live and let live

    peace & love brothers
     
  3. peledre

    peledre Member

    Mar 25, 2001
    Sioux Falls, SD
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  4. peledre

    peledre Member

    Mar 25, 2001
    Sioux Falls, SD
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It's interesting to compare quotes from that article to a chart that Ray Kurzweil put together a long time ago:

    [​IMG]
     
  5. Foosinho

    Foosinho New Member

    Jan 11, 1999
    New Albany, OH
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Right on schedule.
     
  6. topcatcole

    topcatcole BigSoccer Supporter

    Apr 26, 2003
    Washington DC
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The rest of your post is excellent, but the part about reducing our radio wave output is completely wrong. We are in fact constantly searching for additional spectrum and for better ways to use existing spectrum because of the explosion in radio transmissions. Digitalizing our information streams in no way reduces the usage of radio spectrum. In fact the opposite has happened. As one example, radio technology for digital cellular radio is driving governments to reallocate spectrum in many countries.
     
  7. Fah Que

    Fah Que Member

    Sep 29, 2000
    LA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    God now talks to me everyday. God only talks to those who trust in him/her. For those who don't, God will manifest the universe in a way that appears as though God doesn't exist.

    And for those who believe in God: God chooses who are believers and who aren't so there is no point arguing with non believers.
     
  8. Gordon EF

    Gordon EF Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jan 15, 2004
    Edinburgh
    Get help ASAP.
     
  9. RichardL

    RichardL BigSoccer Supporter

    May 2, 2001
    Berkshire
    Club:
    Reading FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    In that case, isn't trying to spread christianity going against god's will?
     
  10. gmonn

    gmonn Member+

    Dec 8, 2005
    Saw "The Face of Jesus?" on the History Channel last night and turned it off after their "hypothesis" of how the Shroud of Turin image was created was: a brilliant light coming off the body creating a photographic image, as a result of "resurrection."
     
  11. peledre

    peledre Member

    Mar 25, 2001
    Sioux Falls, SD
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I love how no one ever bothers to ask where the Shroud was for the 13 centuries prior to it's "discovery".

    To me the shroud is fascinating, because it's the first "photograph" several hundred years prior to Daguerre. Using a camera obscura and some light-fixing solutions like silver nitrates you could've produced this in the 14th century with the requisite knowledge. The shroud is essentially one giant negative, that's why you can view it much better when looking at a negative image of it because then you're actually looking at the positive image.
     
  12. bright

    bright Member

    Dec 28, 2000
    Central District
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This is a very anthropocentric view of information.

    Information is essentially that which creates form. Everything in the universe has information. Furthermore, everything in the universe communicates information. Even rocks. Think about how a landscape can inform the weather.

    I believe the anthropocentric mistake you are making is to confuse abstract "modeling" with information.
     
  13. peledre

    peledre Member

    Mar 25, 2001
    Sioux Falls, SD
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    As well as an incorrect statement of particle physics (RS is quite good at being incorrect).

    In a Bose-Einstein Condensate multiple atoms can occupy the same quantum state.

    While we're on the subject of atoms, an atom walks into the bar in a panic. The bartender asks, Hey what's wrong buddy?"
    To which the atom responds, "I've lost an electron."
    The bartender shoots back, "Are you sure?"
    The atom replies, "Yeah, I'm positive."

    Bazinga!
     
  14. royalstilton

    royalstilton Member

    Aug 2, 2004
    SoCal
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    tell me this. is a B-E condensate a naturally occurring state, or is it something that requires manipulation?
     
  15. peledre

    peledre Member

    Mar 25, 2001
    Sioux Falls, SD
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It's a phenomenon that occurs at very low temperatures, close to absolute zero. We've been able to produce them in a laboratory experiments (and it continues to be an interesting area of research as it offers the possibility for macro level quantum effects to be visible).

    Whether or not there are any areas of the universe cold enough for BEC's to form is open to debate. Your average empty space of the universe is much to warm for a BEC to be possible.
     
  16. Ecclesiastes2003

    May 30, 2003
    Well, I haven't read the 60 pages of replies, but I think that claim is wrong. Scientific hypotheses are empirically falsifiable, meanwhile the existence of God lies outside the realm of empirical experience, and would lie more in the realm of Metaphysics or Theology. I think the existence of God isn't provable one way or another, that's why most people who do believe take it as a matter of faith.

    I'll use this example. Say you are a freakishly smart fish in an aquarium with pitch-black windows so you can't see anything outside the aquarium. That fish can empirically test several hypotheses about what lies within the aquarium, but there is an entire universe of things outside the aquarium which the fish can not know. I would say our universe is like the aquarium, and God (if such a being exists) lies probably outside the aquarium beyond anything which we can empirically know about. Sorry if this thought experiment seems a little weird or not well thought out, but I just watched my team's biggest game of the season after a party involving beer so I'm not thinking particularly clear right now.

    Source: Got a Philosophy degree (aka unemployed (j/k?))
     
  17. Ombak

    Ombak Moderator
    Staff Member

    Flamengo
    Apr 19, 1999
    Irvine, CA
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Well you have to define God or his characteristics. Certain gods are very much falsifiable ideas and many god statements make claims about the universe that can be falsified.

    Whether your god can or cannot be falsified depends on how you define him. Keep in mind how much the god of the gaps has changed.
     
  18. chrisinho

    chrisinho Member

    Apr 24, 2002
    Back in HelLA
    I'm not so sure this is a good example or analogy.

    I think rational fish hypotheses would soon lead to a theory that that their aquarium is an open system, that open systems must include forces that are introducing and removing elements from their system and examination of these elements have implications about the nature of what lies beyond.

    Further, the philosophers among the fish population would suggest that if nothing exists beyond the aquarium, there is a possibility that the opposite is also true, that something exists. In other words, by naming "nothing" it has automatically become "something."

    Then they'd all kill each other.
     
  19. bright

    bright Member

    Dec 28, 2000
    Central District
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    [​IMG]
     
  20. royalstilton

    royalstilton Member

    Aug 2, 2004
    SoCal
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    so. what you're essentially saying is that BECs exist only in a manufactured reality, so far as we know, though they theoretically could exist naturally.

    the reason i asked is that someone challenged my statement that two carbon atoms cannot occupy the same space. if i'm correct that BEC condensates involve gasses at very low temperatures, then it probably would be true that two carbon atoms cannot occupy the same space.
     
  21. benztown

    benztown Member+

    Jun 24, 2005
    Club:
    VfB Stuttgart
    Apparently you're not correct. They CAN and they DO occupy the same space, it's just that the only times we've seen it is when we've produced it ourselves.

    What you're saying is that vodka and orange juice can't mix, because the only times we see it is when we mix it ourselves...
     
  22. royalstilton

    royalstilton Member

    Aug 2, 2004
    SoCal
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    my specific statement was that two carbon atoms cannot occupy the same space. the counter claim was that in BECs, two atoms occupy the same quantum state. i'm not sure that contradicts what i said, but BECs are the result of cooling gasses to very low temperatures, as i read it, so unless carbon is a gas at very low temperatures -- and carbon is a diatomic element, as you are well aware -- it wouldn't be true, unless there are other phenomena than BECs where two atoms occupy the same quantum state.

    and you would have to prove that two carbon atoms can occupy the same space to falsify my contention that they cannot, not just say they can without any evidence.

    so i don't think i'm incorrect, at least not yet.
     
  23. royalstilton

    royalstilton Member

    Aug 2, 2004
    SoCal
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    by the way, this is a horrible misrepresentation of my point. you should be ashamed.
     
  24. peledre

    peledre Member

    Mar 25, 2001
    Sioux Falls, SD
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    1) Given your position about the nature of the universe, do you understand why it's irrelevent whether or not a BEC was created in a lab vs. found in nature?

    Furthermore to date we've created BEC with gases like Helium-4, I'm not aware of any laws of physics that would prevent us from using a different substance, only technical challenges.


    Your original statement was this,
    In your original statement you state every object is distinct and simply use carbon atoms as one example, you're still wrong about that anyway.
     
  25. royalstilton

    royalstilton Member

    Aug 2, 2004
    SoCal
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    how does my position regarding the nature of the universe apply?

    so you're saying that it would only be a matter of "technical challenges" to create a BEC with carbon as the substance.

    oh?

    so your quibble here is that the word "distinct" is inaccurate. would "discrete" be a better word?
     

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