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Discussion in 'Youth National Teams' started by Real Corona, Apr 2, 2012.
Actually, it was a lame point, and your comment above is false. Do your homework on why HG players are becoming more important to MLS Teams.
You can't give an answer?
Fair point. We don't have anyone who even looks like they can reach Donovan or Dempsey's level, much less a player at the higher level that even smaller or similar countires like Ghana and Bosnia produce. I guess my only response would be that there is a certain randomness to focusing on the very best players and that a fairer indicator is looking at a broader level. And by that measure, this U-23 team has more players playing at a higher level than previously, or at least not reduced numbers. So I don't see our development structures doing worse (though not really improving fast enough).
I think you guys need to wait a few more years before you can say we don't have any players that can reach "Dempsey's or Donovan's level".
I think Some players under performed this tournament. And that was that.
"Where is the next Dempsey?!?"
Where was Dempsey at this age?
I was about to say the same thing.
A kid like Juan Agudelo is ~2 years younger right now than Dempsey was when he played his first pro game. Dempsey didn't play for our U17's, was never a star for our U20's (only made one substitute appearance at the U20WC), and as far as I know never played for our U23's (I could be wrong about that one.)
Remember, Herculez Gomez never represented the US on any youth level. Now he's looking like one of our top 3 strikers.
It really is impossible to project this group into the future. For all we know, 5 years from now Adrian Ruelas, Bobby Wood, Andrew Wooten, and Conor Doyle will be USMNT players. (Unlikely........but you never know what's going to happen)
It's just hard to predict these things.
I honestly thing that JK would tell you that Brek is the "next Dempsey", but it's still hard to predict how much more he'll develop. With all of Brek's troubles with the USA, he carried FC Dallas for half a season last year. That's a very impressive accomplishment for a kid his age. Remember- Dempsey wasn't a starter for the USA in 2006- he had been hurt and inconsistent for us up to that point.
There's a lot of growing yet to do for all the kids off this roster.
I did. Your questions were the same boring and pedantic stuff you usually drag people into, and I'm telling you I'm not interested.
You are welcome. Hopefully you learned you need to actually know what you're talking about before you pretend like you do.
Dempsey's career stats
2004 (22 years old)
MLS: 24 appearances 7 goals
2005 (23 years old)
MLS: 26 apps 10 goals
2006 (24 years old)
MLS 24 apps 7 goals
transfers to Fulham for ~$4 million
2011 (21 years)
MLS 31 apps 11 goals
2010 (20 years)
MLS 25 apps 5 goals
2009 (19 years)
MLS 19 apps 0 goals
2008 (18 years)
FC Dallas 2 apps 0 goals
I'm not one for comparing players in terms of "the next player x" but it is worth some perspective to look at this. Brek Shea is entering this season at the same age that Clint Dempsey started his pro career.
Yup. For some reason Brek Shea gets an enormous amount of grief. Last year as a 21 year old he was 3rd in MLS MVP voting. At that age Eddie Lewis was chasing coeds around UCLA.
I think, as usual, expectations went thru the roof when Brek played so well at the start of last year in MLS. People started projecting him into a type of player that he isn't, and never will be. (I'm probably as guilty of that as anybody)
I think people just don't want him starting for the national team. Dempsey did not become a starter until his third season I believe.
I also think Dempsey fresh out of college was better than Shea now. Shea won't have such a good season this year in my estimation as well.
There's already a solid spectrum age-wise of player doing well in the Mexico and the better leagues in Europe.
Holden, Ream, Gooch, Beasley, Herc, Dempsey, Cherundolo, Guzan, Howard, Lichaj, Friedel, Bradley, Altidore, Corona
The hand waving comes across as the mutterings of a grumpy old guy.
It seems to be a trend sadly. Some of the most conflict filled YA threads, or just general USA topics tend to involve Jozy Altidore or Freddy Adu. One reason to me seems to be the early success they had and then frustration that they couldn't reach the highest of standards set by some people. It's a bit unfair to those two as they can only be the players they can be, but they seem to be always carrying around a conflict tag from those early expectations.
That's my feeling too, although in my mind it's an open question where Shea will end up.
The players I see as most comparable to him are Quaranta, Gaven, Mapp, Convey, Rogers, so I'll be happy if Shea makes positive national team contributions at all.
2008's qualifying squads.
I count 13 MLS players
5 european based players
Kamani Hill (Wolfsburg)
1 Mexican based player
The actual Olympic roster
Michael Bradley (Heerenveen)
Danny Szetela (Brescia)
Benny Feilhaber (Derby)
Now I do this because from memory I can't think of who was or wasn't released for qualifying. But one might suspect that the above four would qualify as too important to their clubs to be released for qualifying.
This year we had a familiar face
Altidore (AZ Alkmaar)
D. Williams (Hoffenheim
Diskerud likely would have joined this group if not for his rather unique contract situation.
So through the admittedly limited prism, we can see that (crossing off Altidore since he is in both groups) we had four players too valuable to be released by their European clubs this go around and only three last cycle.
Also keep in mind that two of the 2010 cycle players are starters in the Bundesliga, one is a regular 18 in the Bundesliga and only Gatt is in a relatively weak league in Norway. But he is on the reigning champion.
In 2008 we had Feilhaber who never played for Derby (10 appearances), Bradley as a starter for Heerenveen in the Eredivisie and Szetela who if memory serves was playing regularly for Brescia in Serie B.
Just based off the limited window of these parameters one would have to say it doesn't support
I'm content to let Shea be whoever Shea turns out to be. Right now he looks to have legitimate potential to help our team long term. Whether he will be another Eddie Gaven/Robbie Rogers or the next Clint Dempsey only time will tell. Obviously being a prospect is just that, having potentially. Even #1 overall picks burn out.
Looking at some of the MLS players who have gone on to be semi regulars for the senior team... before the 2008 season
Maurice Edu played this in MLS (transfered to SPL 2.4 million pounds)
2007 Toronto FC 25
25 total appearances
2007 Houston Dynamo 22
2006 Houston Dynamo 13
Chris Seitz had 7 appearances
2007 Columbus Crew 10
2007 Toronto FC 22
2007 New York Red Bulls 1
2006 New York Red Bulls 28
2007 FC Dallas 25
2006 FC Dallas 2
2007 Houston Dynamo 16
2006 Houston Dynamo 2
One might take the assumption that MLS is better and more competitive today than it was four years ago (one can feel free to dispute this) first off. Second it's clearly noticeable that this group of players have exponentially more experience than the 2008 squad. If we combine the assumption with fact, we get a team of players who have more experience in a better league than the pool before and again it doesn't seem to be the case, through this prism either that the previous cycle was so clearly better than this one.
The only conclusion I can make is that one might use the benefit of hindsight to say that players who have already gone through their development are better than players still entering theirs.
Wow! A shame that nastiness, strawmen and personal attacks replace useful analysis. I am hopeful for something more . .
Even though we knew there were defensive problems on this team, I believe we considered this squad to have some of the best attacking (and who'd a thunk it, goalkeeping) talent in recent years.
I believe the big problem was overconfidence and the 6-0 defeat of Cuba contributed greatly to this concern.
It is up to the coaches, the current coaches, to manage that appropriately.
I agree there may be a random factor to producing top-level talent (it goes into the nature vs. nurture argument). I also think the difference between the US Team of the past ~4 years and those of the 90s comes down to:
a: better depth, and
b: Donovan and Dempsey
I don't think we can be satisfied with maintaining the median. To get where I think we want to go, we have to produce elite players as well. I still have hope for some of these young players - but our development system has to produce more top-end players for us to be at Mexico's level.
I did not attack anyone personally, nor did I use a straw man. I attacked lame arguments, specifically the ones saying there are few economic incentives for MLS teams to develop players by gently inviting posters to educate themselves on the new rules for home grown players. There are a number of direct and indirect economic incentives for MLS Teams to emphasize player development.
Oh, and I took a pass on a Spartacus pedantic pissing match.
Ironically the third player of note with much controversy attached to him until recently would be Michael Bradley, who is not much older than either of those guys and suffered from the complete opposite situation with fans.
I suppose the real lesson here is to underpromise and overdeliver. I think you can make the case that Mikey and perhaps with a bit more time Tim Ream, another player you can say the same about, fall under that category.