The fight against modern football 3

Im sorry but in most topics you present very little facts that support you view of things. I struggle to understand why you have some of the stands you have . For example how you can be so little critical to the corporate America when you live in it. Im sure there are elements about it i will never understand because of who i am and where i live. But how you fail to see that there is an imbalance in for example your own country or in EPL i do not understand.
I mean you presented an example where you said the unions was to powerful , when i reality they never was as big or powerful as you can see in Europe today. They where strangled slowly with bans , strike restrictions and corruption. Why are not people opening their eyes to see how the people`s interests isn`t maintained to the extent it should? It is the exactly same thing we see in European football and that is why people protest and organize . Because just as in society peoples interests is not maintained to the extent people find necessary.
Are corporates necessary ? Yes. But just as everywhere else there is need for a balance . So can you please explain to me why there is no need for strong unions in the US ? Or why fans , memebers or the community should not be a bigger part of the control of a club? And yes as i have said a hundred times soon , the owners are in their full right to run clubs alone as they please. But is it in their own interest to keep pushing to the end of the road ? I mean you keep speaking of the owners rights , shares , quality and so on. Have you once spoken for the fans , workers or the poeple one time in here ? what is the fight against modern football to you ? wouldn`t you like to afford following your team live? or sit in the area that fit you wishes and needs? And wouldn`t it be great if the people that didn`t want to sit still in the same area as you could be able to stand ,sing and spill beer if that is what they want ?

See the ambiguous meaning Schapes ?

With all due respect to the Superligaen - I was talking about clubs like Juventus, Roma, AC Milan, Inter Milan, Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea, Bayern Munich, Real Madrid, Barcelona, Olympique Marseille, Lille, Olympique Lyon, PSG, Valencia, those types of clubs.

In terms of Portsmouth, it seems that they are looking for fans to " donate" to the club. There is no mention of selling shares.

Will they be traded on the FTS ( London Stock Exchange)? Manchester United is traded on the New York Stock Exchange.

The reason unions failed in the US was because they made it impossible to let workers go whether it was lack of performance by the worker, maybe the business wasn't doing well and they had to let some workers go to save the business - unions made that harder.

The competitiveness of the global economy also made it harder for US companies to compete. Because of the wage that had to be paid to union workers ( including benefits that include healthcare). Workers in other countries were willing to work for less - therefore making their products less expensive.
http://economics.about.com/od/laborinamerica/a/union_decline.htm

http://www.old-yankee.com/blog/decline-of-unions.html

In view of the good dialogue NSA has had with the NFF and other power brokers in Norwegian football is NSA invited as participants in the steering committee for "European handbook Wed Supporters charters"
http://www.fotballsupporter.no/inde...eisk-samarbeidsforum&catid=23:info-fra-styret

I have stood up for fans rights. I think that clubs should dialogue with fans. Does that mean clubs will always do what fans want? No. They should at least listen though.

I would like to go see my local NFL team more. Sure. The NFL though is an expensive proposition. Kind of like the EPL. I would like to drive a Porsche too - I don't cause I can't afford it. Should Porsche lower their prices so I can (as well as everyone else) drive one?

You never look at what modern football brings to other fans though. This weekend I will get to see seven EPL games, six La Liga games, three Ligue 1 games. I don't know that I will get to see all of them - that is incredible though ( obviously wife permitting). But, through the week I will probably see them all. I also will see the Champions League qualifiers as well.

Yes off course you where. You always do Well it is possible to buy shares from all the clubs you mention. Is that good enough for you ? But to be able to buy share you need someone selling them.

Im not sure but United is probably the only European footbal club on New York Stock marked. What is your point ?

My point is that it is possible ( not likely) that someone could buy a share of Manchester United and actually sell the shares for more than they bought them for. As I said earlier - the Portsmouth shares aren't made to be re-sold. To me that is a donation. There is a big difference. It doesn't have to be the New York Stock Exchange - it can be any exchange. My assumption Portsmouth issuances are not being traded on the FTSE.

My other assumption is that Superligaen shares are also not bought then possible for re-sale? The MANU stock price fluctuates - do the shares of the Superligaen also?

In what way do you think the dialog should function ? Who, where, what , rights , power distribution of power, organization, when and so on ? I mean what is a dialog to you. Who has the last word? How is the fans represented and where ?

Again with the hopless comparisons ? If there was one Porche in the hole world . It was in your neighborhood and had tens of thousands of fans just watching , cheering , and following it where ever it drove. And if the reason the Porche managed to survive and exist then yes i feel the cars followers or fans should get a word or two. See all the "similarities" between a car and a club ?

Sure i do. And it is great for you and i guess the same applies for parts of Asia. No one has said EPL , La Liga or Legue 1 shouldn`t be shown to you or others. So yes i embrace the positive sides that modern football brings. No doubt about it. It is just that you do not hear or read about it.

Hmm...this is where I think the whole idea does itself no favours.

There's very little money to be made out of football on the whole. The idea that price rises are all down to greedy owners is naive in the extreme. Ticket prices go up because football is increasing more expensive to run. New facilities cost money. New players cost money. Putting a better team out costs money.

Much of the rise is down to the arms race mentality, where clubs would rather overspend to be competitive than keep to a budget and do less well.

Modern fans are also far more demanding that in the past, and if the Cardiff example is anything to go by, more interested in success than tradition. A group of fans in Cardiff protesting against the move to red shirts have been threatened by other fans, who see the overseas investment as far more important in their greed for success.

The only thing I will say about Cardiff is the owners shouldn't change the colors from red to blue. I understand the tradition. Unfortunately, the owners can change the colors.

Without the owners they currently have Cardiff City may not exist.

The owner has the final say. That is how it should be. Just like any other business. Does Apple let it's "fans" decide when the IPhone 5 is released. I don't think so. Does that mean Apple doesn't sit down and talk to customers? Sure they do. Don't let them make decisions.

In terms of Porsche, how is it different? Porsche prices are set by the market. Same as football tickets.

Cardiff would exist without them. They'd probably have to sell players and take a tumble downwards to pay off the debts, but few would have much sympathy with them on that front.

The new owners said they'd only invest if the colours changed, and the modern fan, obsessed with premier league glory, happily bent over and took it up the backside.

the sad thing is that th kind of fans who have been demanding the club spend, spend, spend in search of glory are the kind who are the first to stop going if the club ever has a period of austerity paying off that debt.


Unless these new owners are in it for the long haul, it's all going to end very messily, just as it does for every single club that relies on being bankrolled.

Apple are smart enough to not push things through that would seriously piss off their customer base though. They also know that if they do do unpopular things, customers have a very easy alternative.

Maybe fans do suffer because of their loyalty. If chairman knew fans would just go and watch someone else instead if they did unpopular things, they'd do rather fewer of them.

Loyalty should be nurtured and rewarded, not abused.

Who has said the raising ticket prices is all down to greedy owners ? But many are still a big part off it. Wouldn`t you agree ?
And why is football more expensive to run ? Who(mostly makes the shot on the use of money ? Did the working class demand new facilities like all seater ? How do they manage to keep the ticket prices down in Germany and have the same facilities for those who want to pay for it ?
As to the player purchase policy i think there are ways to limit the expenses on players .
Putting a better team can cost much money. It can also be rather cheap. Disn`t i refer to a report that showed most football leader overestimated their own , the team , the economy and the clubs abilities . Something that often resulted in negative result. You can in a way say that the competitive nature of sports people combined with competitive buisnissmenn often is a bad combination.
But i will agree that there is very little money to make from football as a whole.

Agreed!

Yes modern fans are more demanding. But who are these modern fans ? Are the "regular" fans gone?
Yes i know there are many different views on this topic. We struggle with the same discussion in my club. Some feel we should give investors more direct power in the club while other would rather go down a league or two before they let the investors get the power. ( In Norway the clubs are 100% controlled by its members. For investors there is created a separat AS or a corporation by the club with a separat board that promoted things to the clubs board.)



Ps: Good to have you back

I agree . The owners should not change the colors. And i fully understand that the club can not exist (at least to the degree they do to day)
What i am hoping for is clubs , memebers , people , community and so on to start thinking of where this is going to end if we do not try to slow down and think a little longer then the place on the table this season. Think back and learn from why for example Cardiff City ended up where they are today. Why did they end up with the need of a Malaysian owner ? Would the debdt to some English clubs be at the level it is today if they had involved their local community to a greater deal in the past? And im not saying this is an English problem. This is everywhere. I am only using it as an example.

I agree. Loyalty should be nurtured and rewarded - not abused.

Don't know if they are in it for the long haul or not. Time will tell. Hopefully, they are.

I both dissagree and agree. I think the majority shuld have the final saying. Like the proposal in Germany where you can own up to say 96% of a club but still do not get more then 49% of the votes. Som places the main owner decides other places the majority has the final saying. There are many different models on how this can work or am. The only thing that is sure is a to proportion of external economic help hurts the total product over time.

I will not go into this discussion one more time. Football is not like any other business period.

I told you in my previous post.
Again with the hopless comparisons ? If there was one Porche in the hole world . It was in your neighborhood and had tens of thousands of fans just watching , cheering , and following it where ever it drove. And if its fans was the reason the Porche managed to survive and exist then yes i feel the cars followers or fans should get a word or two .

Please just drop the comparison to other products. To me it can not be compared.

Vifvaf - I have a question for you just a little bit off topic. What has happened to the Norway Women's National team? I was thinking of this while watching the Olympics. I remember some great games between the US women and Norway. I know they made the last Women's World Cup in 2011.

Any chance for a renaissance?

What about the men? Any chance we see them in Brazil?

Did you miss this again Schapes ?
Define in your own words what you meant by No other football club in the world would have tried to raise cash through an IPO. and : Even as unsuccessful as most people are calling it - it is the largest sports IPO ever. Also, I am sure it helped them secure RVP today.
This is your words. please explain thenm.

Not really. Greed is typically about personal gain, and most chairman gain nothing from raising ticket prices.

A willingness to compete in that arms race, and the inability to do anything about limiting spending. The simple answer is players' wages. Supply and demand allows players to ask for ever higher sums.

No, but nor did the owners. It was down to new safety levels, as well as a need to invest to improve crowds.

Partly through a better pricing structure, but also through a willingness to not have quite the same free market that's been damaging elsewhere. German terrace prices are cheap, but seats are often as expensive as in England.

No, but the trend has been towards more instant gratification, with more people no longer thinking their club's natural position in the league is acceptable.

A very good point. The loyalty to a club in Europe is something investors know about so in that part it may seem "low risk" to invest in.
But would you give up your team or club ? I don`t think you have the same loyality to any other product in the world like what you see people have toward their clubs.
That might be what makes people like me say or think like i do. To people on the outside it probably do not seem very rational.

I think in an era of growing crowds, owners get very lazy and don't appreciate loyalty is only elastic to a degree. Once a fan makes that decision to stop being a regular, it's incredibly hard to get them back. A £4 ticket rise might be enough to make their loyalty snap, and if it does, offering a £4 discount won't tempt them back.

Arsenal, for example, used to have a 25,000 long waiting list for season tickets not so long ago, but with prices rising that waiting list is now all but gone.

Did you see the Norwegian referee giving your girls a helping hand to the final?

Well internal problems with the coach is one . Lack of investment , focus , commitment and so on are all part of the problem.
It seems our women are having a down period. Im sure they will be back in the top. But some adjustments are needed to get there. If they will qualify for Brazil i do not know. Everything is in the loose pr now.