The Crew Forum Politics Thread (Read Before You Post)

Timon must be on vacation. Ron Paul. That is all.

Would that everyone, no matter which "team" they rooted for, remembered this. In fact, I have a feeling this might be re-used a lot.

The more Congress "DOES SOMETHING!!!!!!!!" the worse off everyone is. I reference you back to our current eleventy billion dollar debt. Or Greece.

My be a relevant topic here...

I got into a pretty heated debate with a friend in regards to a petition going around on Facebook for the Government to get rid of the student loan debt. It's less of the fact it was on Facebook and more of the fact they he thought it was a good idea. Granted, yes it would be nice not to pay my 40K of student loans back. It would really help my personal financial situation but I made a choice. I chose to go to college, and I chose to take on debt to finance that endeavor. No one said I had to go or made me go. I feel like it really just speaks to the current attitude of our society that people think they don't have to be responsible for their actions and that actions of consequences, good and bad. Anyways, after a lengthy discussion I decided it's not worth even debating about and left.

Facebook petitions are super-effective!

It's been the standard response since the nation was born. And it will continue to be used.

But I don't simply blame politicians; voters are very much to blame because they vote in people who tell them what they want to hear, rather than what is necessary, possible or even likely. Such people also feed off of and inflame partisan rhetoric. How many politicians say something like "The issue we're dealing with here is complicated and divisive; we need to work together, compromise and find a workable middle ground"? Instead politicians talk of "stopping" or "defeating" their opponents, constantly question their motives, morals, religious beliefs, even their citizenship. They say their opponents are "destroying" America and characterize politics as a kind of total warfare where scorched-earch tactics are not only used but encouraged. It's OK to hurt the nation as long as it hurts one's opponent the most. Blatant falsehoods are constantly repeated merely because stupid people eventually take them on board if they are bombarded with them long enough by the "infotainment" news media.

We can vote incompetent politicians out of office. But as long as voters are ignorant - or worse, lazy - when it comes to politics, the same old paths will continue to be trodden. Conservatives and liberals will never agree on everything - or even most things. And finding a middle ground is not always possible (many social issues, from slavery to gay rights, fall into this category). That's democracy. But we're stuck together forever, and we ought to make the best of it. It doesn't have to be as nasty or as it currently is.

It's been the standard response since the nation was born. And it will continue to be used.

But I don't simply blame politicians; voters are very much to blame because they vote in people who tell them what they want to hear, rather than what is necessary, possible or even likely. Such people also feed off of and inflame partisan rhetoric. How many politicians say something like "The issue we're dealing with here is complicated and divisive; we need to work together, compromise and find a workable middle ground"? Instead politicians talk of "stopping" or "defeating" their opponents, constantly question their motives, morals, religious beliefs, even their citizenship. They say their opponents are "destroying" America and characterize politics as a kind of total warfare where scorched-earch tactics are not only used but encouraged. It's OK to hurt the nation as long as it hurts one's opponent the most. Blatant falsehoods are constantly repeated merely because stupid people eventually take them on board if they are bombarded with them long enough by the "infotainment" news media.

We can vote incompetent politicians out of office. But as long as voters are ignorant - or worse, lazy - when it comes to politics, the same old paths will continue to be trodden. Conservatives and liberals will never agree on everything - or even most things. And finding a middle ground is not always possible (many social issues, from slavery to gay rights, fall into this category). That's democracy. But we're stuck together forever, and we ought to make the best of it. It doesn't have to be as nasty as it currently is.

"Conservatives" and "liberals" agree on lots.

That's kind of the problem.

If the government ever forgave student loans, then I want a refund on my paid loans, with interest.

It would be nice, as we are now paying on our son's (ongoing) loans.

This is what worries me about talk of student loan forgiveness. I chose to study a useful major that I knew I could turn into a career. This has allowed me to gain employment and repay my loans. I had many friends that majored in English, History, Creative Writing, Philosophy etc. Many of those people are having trouble finding jobs because those majors didn't prepare them well enough. That was their choice.

I know their are still plenty of students with good degrees that are struggling and I feel for them. But if you reward those students who made poor choices, you lower the incentive to make better ones.

However, I feel much of the blame needs to fall upon the universities that charge so much for so little guarantee of gaining employment in a student's desired field. I remember seeing a chart that showed the relationship of minimum wage to the price of tuition from 30 years ago. Back then a student could work part time and afford to pay for college. Today, working the same job for the same amount of time leaves the students still thousands of dollars in debt. Maybe colleges should be ranked according to student debt to graduate salary ratio.

To me, this really sums up government as a whole. There are people that are genuinely unfortunate that require assistance. There are others that are simply continuing to make bad choices and being bailed out. I want no part of the bailout.

Also, it is taking more than 4 years to graduate now. However, some of that falls on the students and not on the school. Baldwin-Wallace University (formerly known as College) has a 4 year guarantee. It has restrictions but I have looked at them and they are all reasonable. If you meet them and don't graduate in 4 years they pay for the 5th.

To a limited degree, sure. But most of the blame for runaway inflation in post-secondary education lies elsewhere, starting with the purveyors of the notion that college is the right path for everyone and a high school degree is meaningless by extension.

Double posts are commonplace in the new BigSoccer. Is there some kind of glitch?

Could you repeat that?

My uncle works with an organization that's helps high school kids receive training or education that does not evolve a 4 year degree. Not everyone is made for college, that's not a slight on them but rather they are not geared for that setting. To many kids go to school because they feel like that's the only way to make a living or it's what is expected.

On Kasich- not only do I think he won't run for president (at least not successfully), I question whether he will even get another term as governor. He had less than 50% of the vote last time around, and his popularity has plummeted since. Of course its hard to predict what will happy in a couple years, but there's a good chance he won't make it another term.


On student loan forgiveness- I am torn. I agree with a lot of the sentiments expressed above regarding you chose to go, pay off your obligations. As someone who racked up quite a student loan debt (no parental help for anything- went to undergrad, thought was going to get a PhD, got the masters and switched to law school- that is a lot of money), I did it know that I would have to manage that debt for the majority of my adult life. Why shouldn't we all feel that way?

But, I am also of the mind that education costs have gone unchecked and spiraled out of control and something should be done about it.

Also, the emerging generation's student loan debt could have a devastating effect on the national economy (and especially on local economies). We have nearly an entire generation of young professionals that are simply saddled by debt. This means that they must put off large purchases such as homes and new cars. These are things that really drive the economy (or at least used as indicators). They also have less disposal income. Economies lean heavily on people spending their disposal income to create jobs (buying stuff, eating out, using services, etc...). But now you have young professionals making decent money, but instead of putting that money back into the local economy, it simply goes back to pay debt for maybe around 20 years. So, despite people earning money, less and less ends back up into the economy to drive more prosperity. This can have a multiplier effect that can lead to economic disaster. So, I really accept an economic argument maybe more than I do a simple "hey, i shouldn't have to pay off my debt because school should be free and stuff."

But if you forgive student loans... who get's theirs forgiven? What about my wife and I who just paid off her loan ~6 months ago? What about people just starting college? Do we tell all high school students that their college will be free? That will just exacerbate the problem as even more kids would enter college, thinking their loans will be forgiven too. And not only would more kids go to college, but more would do so with loans. Why should mom and dad pay for all or part of jr's college when the government will just step in and void those loans?

Not to mentions that some would argue that the ease of obtaining student loans and grants is why college prices have escalated so much lately. I've heard people working within Universities admit that universities have increased cost as more money has come available (i.e. if the government is willing to give/loan some people X amount of dollars a year, colleges raise their rates to ~$X, and everyone pays higher rates).

But... but... but... but...

Yup dude, lots of questions. And no matter what you do, someone is going to be mad and feel like they were treated unfairly.

But it is clear that something needs to be done. Student loan forgiveness is just part of the problem.

Actually, I am not even sure it is the "problem." It is more like a symptom. You're right that part of the reason costs have risen so much is because more loans are made available. How much good would a blanket forgiveness do, if we just keep doing the same thing and the next generation has the same problem?

Whats really needed is total a rehaul of the system. The government needs to go "look, you all got to lower your prices. We are limiting the amount of money available." etc etc etc and maybe forgiveness is part of that so we can just start with a clean slate? Either way, something needs to be done in this situation. And something needs done about the underlying problem, or we will just keep treating the symptoms.

How about "live within your means". If you can't afford college and need to get a loan (as most do), get a career that will pay it off. Or, work hard and pay off your obligations

/soapbox. When I went to Ohio State (1986-1991), I paid my own way. No student loans. I worked my butt off, lived in a crappy apartment with a leaky roof, and ate mac & cheese nearly every night. My car had holes by my feet, so I could brake like Flintstone. I learned a hell of a lot more from that (how to work hard, budget, etc) than I did at Ohio State, and I learned a lot there. If you are having a hard time paying off your loans, get a second job. Get a roommate. Don't get a new car./soapbox.

The argument about stimulating the economy by forgiving these loans is weak. Forgive my mortgage, and suddenly I have a hell of alot more disposable income. Is that really what people are asking for?

Fire RW

Had to rep that for every damn word of it. And the ending... got me all choked up!! Great stuff!

The best method is making them work for it, not giving it to them. I think that was the point of the post.