The best players of the season so far 2012-13

That is clearly what I did not ask.

 

Yes, that are the attributes but I meant the steps undertaken, the underlying factors. Some have said that it helps that he is nurtured in Barcelona but it is rarely specified what gave him the competitive edge. I simply mean the (identifiable; basic?) causes.

Other examples: cultural atmosphere in Amsterdam helped to make Cruijff into what he became (which others did follow, partially because not every city had a similar atmosphere).

Example of other sport (this was not the one and only reason but just to keep it short): starting of structural weight lifting programs by personal trainer Tim Grover in 1989 onward was fundamental in bringing Michael Jordan to an even higher championship winning level (a level that garnered world wide fame across both oceans).

So, I mean the causes (and good profiles) which can also be that Messi learns at a faster rate as others, like free kick taking.
Similar example: Zola became a good free kick taker partially because he looked closely to Maradona.

 

Of course, others practiced free kick taking too and had the opportunity to learn from a 'legend' but note everyone became as good as Zola in that department. Still, he is always the first to cite the importance of Maradona his example-setting to him.

Similarly, there have been many more basketball players who did weight lifting on a structural basis.
But sometimes there is still a defining moment (often many defining moments coming together, forming a conjuncture) or another circumstance which is turned into an advantage by someone.

Controversial to say but the previously mentioned book 'perfect 10' by Richard Williams suggests strongly that creatine lifted Zidane to a next level and made him stronger.

But I do not only mean that (to be clear). The example of Zola is a good one. Another good example close to home is Van Basten. His mentor Cruijff (among others) has said since the beginning that he had an almost unmatched willingness to improve himself and prove himself at all costs, an attribute which not many possessed. In other words, a mentality that provided a competitive edge at that time (obviously coinciding with many other things; sometimes a trainer swap just gives the final spark).

 

Creatine does not lift any world class athlete to 'a next level' ever.
http://www.jssm.org/vol2/n4/1/v2n4-1pdf.pdf

 

At Club level yes ...
I am glad you put the word "probably" in front ... otherwise it's just hard to imagine how he implies his games if facing TOPclass DF ?

WC and copa had DEFIED those claims :
WC 0goals/22shots was hardly a good striker stat in finishing
He was not among the TOP5 to TOP10 performers in any 2 copas and 1.5 WC events proved he was not truely "another level" to the rest!

.. maybe another word "probably" would do the trick!

 

I read something else as you do in that article. Have you googled it? Anyhow, various sources say that Zidane started to do this at Juventus and whatever he did, his muscles and strength started to grow.

Which Argentine elements are you thinking of? And Spanish ones?

The interesting aspect in that thought is that the Argentinian ones need to be cultured/preserved once an athlete (like Messi) steps over to a Spanish approach. Otherwise those elements vanish away.

 

This is the case with any substance. This is also well explained in the widely acclaimed documentary about Ben Johnson (the archetypal violator). That it took pain, sweat and suffering to get dividends from the substance. As well as prolonged focus on technical aspects (in his case his start demanded a high level of timing and coordination). It allowed him to recover faster and train harder but that requires efforts.

To state it again: I don't think it was the only reason for Zidane his improvements but it is certain that he gained strength while playing at Juventus (what assisted him in achieving this is another matter, according to many sources and later sort of confirmed in a legal process it were some substances).
It are that kind of things I meant. In the past you saw a similar effect with long distance runners who stepped over from a semi-pro/amateur to pro regime.
Or in more technical sports like football a focus on free kick training (like Zola).

 

Why is it now superior? Why wasn't it in the past?

He overextends it in his book but the tendency towards infighting does have some historic traces I feel. He singles out art in particular indeed but that is of a bygone era (basically one century and then a notable period at the end of the 19th and start of 20th century with Van Gogh, Mondriaan etc.; that's it). That makes his assertion flawed. Football will soon be a relic of the past too.
Ultimately, I'm now generalizing it, Holland is a nation built on merchants and adventurers (but more nations are like the most influential parts of Denmark for example). It helps in doing pioneering things or break taboos but the 'theory' of a spatial perspective should then apply to all small nations. The 'greatest' sportsfigures and artists are predominantly remembered for their 'innovative' credentials as well, less so for their achievements.

 

Better workout, better diet?
I can assure you that Creatine does not magically make your muscle growth. It does have some (compared to Steroids miniscule) effect on strength/muscle gain, weight gained at the start is mostly water retention.

Also I'm not sure how Zidane ever was a player whose quality was based on his physical strength.

Exactly. It's a supplement that might assists you if you are working out already.

 

You missed this part, certainly if you use those strong words:

And did I ever say that it was like a magic potion? No.

Zidane himself testified by the way in a trial related to Juventus that this was the case. The next step of him was assuring everyone that he did not do it at Real Madrid (despite the fact that it isn't on the banned list).

 

Googled what?

Testified? Assuring everyone that no one did it? Holy shit I don't know where to start with this Brosciece.

It's the running joke of the weightlifting/bodybuilding community, that the general public heavily overrates it's effectiveness and side effects.

If you don't believe me that it would be the best to take your idea to a lifting board and ask there.


There was no trial about Creatine. Like you've said it's not on the banned list, is not detectable nobody gives a damn. Everybody has Creatine in his body and elevated values could come from excessive consumption of red meat.
Just like Cannavaro didn't inject (???) Creatine Phosphate.
If the jacked dude at your local gym tells you he got his benchpress up to 200kg because of 'Creatine', he means Steroids.

 

This is not true overall, while Barcelona may be more dominant than Spain since they have Messi, I would rank Spain, Italy or Germany from Euro 12 above Chelsea's CL02 winners or Inter Milan's CL10 side. I would also rank Uruguay CA11 winning side at least on par with those Chelsea and Inter teams. Also the pressure to win an international competition is far greater than winning the CL or Libertadores, knowing that a triumph can consolidate a team or player as legendary.

 

That article.

You always use big words. I see you scrapped the word 'clueless'. Yes, Zidane admitted this in a courtroom under oath. He also directly said in order to assure Real Madrid that he had stopped with this.
I mention this because that makes it more or less certain that it happened.

Yes, as said, it is not on the banned list. I only mentioned that it might have helped him.

You tell me now that this did not happen?

 

Thought about this but came to the conclusion that your observation (club teams are nowadays more talented and better equiped as national teams) and the question what the highest level is, do not necessarily fall together.
I mean, the USA basketball team is probably better as any club team but Olympics isn't the highest level in basketball.
Similarly, a higher concentration of talent might be seen as a weak spot instead of a strength.

Would say that highest level is also about viewership, exposure, priorities etcetera.

EDIT: similarly, in the early 80s they regularly said that Italy (world cup winners) was just the Juventus core group of players without Platini.

 

Well, how is Bayern Munich equally strong as Germany talent wise? Many of their German players also feature for the NT. Of their foreign players only Ribery would be an real added value to the German NT (at the moment; the likes of Gustavo, Alaba, Mandzukic, Robben are not real enhancements nowadays).
At the same time, Germany NT has many players that do not play for Bayern Munich (Hummels, Gotze, Ozil).

You are also looking at the top of the cream. Are the 9th to 32th strongest club teams stronger as the 9th to 32th national teams? The 32 teams participating at the WC aren't the strongest ones per se.

Feel though (and obviously agree with you) that the elite club teams are generally better as the elite national teams. This was different in the 1980s when the elite national teams were superior to any club team.
Also feel (as discussed a few times before in relation to the high ELO ratings of Spain, Germany etc.) that both elite national teams and elite club teams are nowadays further away from 'the pack' (say the mid-range countries like a Denmark or Belgium) as in earlier epochs.

Meant that prestige and exposure (which can be measured somehow by the number of press accreditation, viewers and pages in papers) say something about what is the highest level.

 

1- Yes and let me remind how he faced them 1ass/10games against CHELSEA and 1 game agianst Inter (UCLfinal 10)

I said TOPCLASS Defenders as well, and who are now that he gotta face? Ramos? or Pepe?

2- I just gave you a number (tangible) at WC10 (only) if I had to pull out all the number of shots when he played for Argentina, that would be "BIG" enough?

Why it is a BIG coincidence that Messi UNDER PERFORMED when in 1 (facing real good defence) and when he was "out of Barca jersey"???
Now do not tell me the number is "tiny" sample!