As always, thoughts and recommendations for the best players of 1988-9 much appreciated. Goalkeepers Neville Southall (Everton and Wales) Walter Zenga (Inter and Italy) Peter Shilton (Derby County and England Michel Preudhomme (Mechelen and Belgium) Joel Bats (Monaco and France) Andreas Kopke (Nuremberg and West Germany) Stefano Tacconi (Juventus and Italy) Gianluca Pagliuca (Sampdoria and Italy) Thomas N’Kono (Espanyol and Cameroon) Theo Snelders (Aberdeen and Netherlands) Silvino (Benfica and Portugal) Stanley Menzo (Ajax and Netherlands) Stansilav Cherchesov (Lokomotiv Moscow/Spartak Moscow and USSR) Full-backs Andreas Brehme (Inter and West Germany) Steve Nicol (Liverpool and Scotland) Paolo Maldini (AC Milan and Italy) Stuart Pearce (Nottingham Forest and England) Giuseppe Bergomi (Inter and Italy) Paul Parker (QPR and England) Mauro Tassotti (AC Milan and Italy) Quique Sanchez Flores (Valencia and Spain) Dan Petrescu (Steaua Bucharest and Romania) Eric di Meco (Marseille and France) Antonio Veloso (Benfica and Portugal) Joao Pinto (Porto and Portugal) Eric Gerets (PSV Einhoven and Belgium) Volodymyr Bessonov (Dynamo Kiev and USSR) Gary Stevens (Rangers and England) Centre-backs Franco Baresi (AC Milan and Italy) Ronald Koeman (PSV Eindhoven and Netherlands) Laurent Blanc (Montpellier and France) Karl Heinz Forster (Marseille and West Germany) Ricardo Ferri (Inter and Italy) Jurgen Kohler (Bayern Munich and West Germany) Rune Bratseth (Werder Bremen and Norway) Klaus Augenthaler (Bayern Munich and West Germany) Frank Rijkaard (AC Milan and Netherlands) Tony Adams (Arsenal and England) Oscar Ruggeri (Logrones and Argentina) Manuel Sanchis (Real Madrid and Spain) Carlos Mozer (Benfica and Brazil) Ciro Ferrara (Napoli and Italy) Pietro Vierchowod (Sampdoria and Italy) Ricardo Arias (Valencia and Spain) Ricardo Gomes (Benfica and Brazil) Richard Gough (Rangers and Scotland) Central Midfielders Dunga (Fiorentina and Brazil) Junior (Pescara and Brazil) Rafael Martin Vasquez (Real Madrid and Spain) David Rocastle (Arsenal and England) Jan Wouters (Ajax and Netherlands) Olaf Thon (Bayern Munich and West Germany) Glen Stromberg (Atalanta and Sweden) Robert Prytz (Atalanta and Sweden) Gianfranco Matteoli (Inter and Italy) Roberto (Barcelona and Spain) Eusebio Sacristan (Barcelona and Spain) Frank Sauzee (Marseille and France) Attacking Midfielders Diego Maradona (Napoli and Argentina) Lothar Matthaus (Inter and West Germany) Gheorghe Hagi (Steaua Bucharest and Romania) Glenn Hoddle (Monaco and England) Uwe Bein (Hamburg and West Germany) Andreas Moller (Borussia Dortmund and West Germany) Dragan Stojkovic (Red Star Belgrade and Yugoslavia) Ruud Gullit (AC Milan and Netherlands) Thomas von Heesen (Hamburg and West Germany) Rui Barros (Juventus and Portugal) Fernando (Valencia and Spain) Valdo (Benfica and Brazil) Fyodor Cherenkov (Spartak Moscow and USSR) Wingers Chris Waddle (Tottenham Hotspur and England) Michel (Real Madrid and Spain) Nicola Berti (Inter and Italy) Thomas Hassler (FC Koln and West Germany) Gerald Vanenburg (PSV Eindhoven and Netherlands) Roberto Donadoni (AC Milan and Italy) Stefan Reuter (Bayern Munich and West Germany) Mark Walters (Rangers and England) Michal Bilek (Sparta Prague and Czechoslovakia) John Barnes (Liverpool and England) Forwards Roberto Baggio (Fiorentina and Italy) Mark Hughes (Manchster United and Wales) Hristo Stoichkov (CSKA Sofia and Bulgaria) Ramon Diaz (Inter and Argentina) George Weah (Monaco and Liberia) Emilio Butragueno (Real Madrid and Spain) Marius Lacatus (Steaua Bucharest and Romania) Emil Kostadinov (CSKA Sofia and Bulgaria) Enzo Francescoli (Metra Racing Paris and Uruguay) Peter Beardsley (Liverpool and England) Strikers Marco Van Basten (AC Milan and Netherlands) Baltazar (Atletico Madrid and Brazil) Hugo Sanchez (Real Madrid and Mexico) Jean-Pierre Papin (Marseille and France) Careca (Napoli and Brazil) Aldo Serena (Inter and Italy) Romario (PSV Eindhoven and Netherlands) Alan Smith (Arsenal and England) Julio Salinas (Barcelona and Spain) John Aldridge (Liverpool and Republic of Ireland) Roland Wolfarth (Bayern Munich and West Germany) Stefano Borgonovo (Fiorentina and Italy) Gianluca Vialli (Sampdoria and Italy) Victor Piturca (Steaua Bucharest and Romania) Lubo Penev (CSKA Sofia and Bulgaria)
All right some of my general thoughts. Definitive *** Marco Van Basten Careca Baltazar Diego Maradona Gheorghe Hagi Frank Rijkaard Lothar Matthäus Andreas Brehme Giuseppe Bergomi Paolo Maldini Franco Baresi Oscar Ruggeri Walter Zenga Borderline ***/** Hugo Sanchez Aldo Serena Gianluca Vialli Jean-Pierre Papin Alan Smith Romário Ruud Gullit Roberto Mancini Roberto Baggio Mark Hughes Thomas Häßler Chris Waddle Glenn Hoddle Ciro Ferrara Laurent Blanc Ronald Koeman Richardo Gomes Miodrag Belodedici Klaus Augenthaler Tony Adams Michel Preud'homme Thomas N'Kono Other options for ** and * Julio Salinas John Aldridge Roland Wohlfarth Ramón Díaz Jürgen Klinsmann Tanju Colak Emilio Butragueño Hristo Stoichkov Peter Beardsley Marius Lăcătuş Michel Paul Merson Roberto Donadoni John Barnes Gerald Vanenberg Attilio Lombardo Bum Kun Cha Uwe Bein Fernando Roberto David Rocastle Dragan Stojković Dorin Mateuţ Dejan Savićević Rui Barros Andreas Möller Giuseppe Giannini Jose Maria Bakero Paul Gascoigne Bernd Schuster Fyodor Cherenkov Nicola Berti Dunga Junior Carlo Ancelotti Bryan Robson Olaf Thon Salvatore Bagni Stuart Pearce Luigi De Agostini Quique Flores Steve Nicol Stefan Reuter Eric Gerets Lee Dixon Dan Petrescu Rune Bratseth Fernando Giner Aloísio Manuel Sanchis Riccardo Ferri Pietro Vierchwood Des Walker Jürgen Kohler Carlos Mozer Gianluca Pagliuca Vítor Baía Neville Southall Andoni Zubizaretta Paco Buyo Ruud Hesp Hans van Breukelen Rinat Dasaev
Good shouts. Just for my own purposes I'm going to separate out the ones that I didn't include in my intial list: Roberto Mancini Miodrag Belodedici Jürgen Klinsmann Tanju Colak Paul Merson Attilio Lombardo Bum Kun Cha Dorin Mateuţ Dejan Savićević Giuseppe Giannini Jose Maria Bakero Paul Gascoigne Bernd Schuster Bryan Robson Salvatore Bagni Luigi De Agostini Lee Dixon Fernando Giner Aloísio Des Walker Vítor Baía Andoni Zubizaretta Paco Buyo Ruud Hesp Hans van Breukelen Rinat Dasaev
I just went through some of the excellent suggestions for my own purposes and added some comments on those I didn't originally put in. Roberto Mancini – 29 games, 9 goals - Rating from DBS Calcio was 6.052 , compared with 6.750 the previous season. Sampdoria won the Coppa Italia, unclear how Mancini played in this. Vialli scored a competition record of 13 goals in the tournament. Miodrag Belodedici – 17 games, 5 goals . Finalist in the European Cup Jürgen Klinsmann – 25 games, 13 goals – Moved to Inter at the end of the season. Tanju Colak – 34 games, 27 goals – Also scored 5 goals in the European Cup. Paul Merson – 37 games, 10 goals – Title winner for Arsenal. PFA Young Player of the Year. Attilio Lombardo – 37 games, 5 goals – Was playing in Serie B. Moved from Cremonese to Sampdoria at the end of the season. Bum Kun Cha – 30 games, 3 goals – Top rated attacker by kicker this season. Dorin Mateuţ – 34 games, 43 goals – Winner of the European Golden Boot. Dejan Savićević – 0 games, 0 goals – Not sure if these numbers are correct (they are from National Football Teams). He was certainly on military service this year. Giuseppe Giannini – 32 games, 6 goals – Rating of 5.9 from DBS Calcio, which placed him as the 17th best attacking midfielder in Serie A. Jose Maria Bakero – 22 games, 10 goals. Not rated in the top 50 players of the season by Don Balon. Paul Gascoigne – 32 games, 6 goals . Started to establish himself with England, unclear if that was based on talent or performance. For instance Erik Thortsvedt was voted Spurs player of the year ahead of him. Bernd Schuster – 33 games, 7 goals . Not rated in the top 50 players of the season by Don Balon. Bryan Robson - 34 games, 4 goals – Included in the PFA team of the year. Salvatore Bagni – 23 games, 2 goals – Played in Serie B for Avellino. Luigi De Agostini – 27 games, 6 goals – Rating of 6.058 from DBS Calcio as the 8th best LB. Lee Dixon – 33 games, 1 goal . Title winner with Arsenal. Call up to England B for the first time. Fernando Giner – 35 games, 1 goal – 5th best rated player in La Liga according to Don Balon. Aloísio – 27 games, 0 goals – 6th best rated player in La Liga according to Don Balon. Cup Winners Cup winner with Barcelona. Des Walker – 34 games, 0 goals . Included in the PFA team of the year. Winner of the league cup and increasingly established for England. Vítor Baía – 15 games, 0 goals – Named Portuguese player of the year for 1989 Andoni Zubizaretta – 36 games, 0 goals. 3rd best rated player in the season by Mundo Deportivo, 32nd by Don Balon. Cup Winners Cup winner with Barcelona. Paco Buyo – 31 games, 0 goals . 28th best rated player by Don Balon, 14th best by Mundo Deportivo. Double winner with Real Madrid. Ruud Hesp – Can’t find appearance numbers. 3rd highest rated player in the Eredivisie. Hans van Breukelen – 22 games, 0 goals . Not among the highest rated players in the Eredivisie. Rinat Dasaev – 24 games, 0 goals – First season at Sevilla after his move. Not rated in the top 50 players of Don Balon.
I was about to make this exact post by my internet crashed right as I was about to finish. Going back through there are a couple of players that I don't know why I included, namely bagni and lombardo. Also I included savicevic based on his excellent performance vs Milan did not know he missed a large portion of the season.
Baltazar looks like a one season wonder btw, he was #40 in Don Balon rankings (3rd best rated forward) and the 2nd best FW in Mundo Deportivo. It seems a poor season for La Liga's forwards in overall performance/shining I think: Juanito 2 stars Baltazar 1-2 stars Butragueño 1-2 stars H.Sanchez 1 star J.Salinas - out??
I think you are giving the ratings to much credit, some of the Guy were extremely productive which h counts for a lot with forwards
They were made for people who saw them played week-in and week-out (something that hardly one of us did). And they judge them in a more profesional way -at live-
I think there is a major tendency in these ratings though to favour defensive players over attacking stars. In particular goalscoring gets very little credit. 35 goals in 36 games from Baltazar is an extraordinary season. I'm not sure what more he could have done as a striker, whose primary importance is to score goals.
A proposed ranking: Goalkeepers Walter Zenga (Inter and Italy) 33 games, 0 goals *** Neville Southall (Everton and Wales) 38 games, 0 goals ** Peter Shilton (Derby County and England) 38 games, 0 goals ** Michel Preudhomme (Mechelen and Belgium) 34 games, 0 goals Joel Bats (Paris Saint-Germain and France) 38 games, 0 goals * Andreas Kopke (Nuremberg and West Germany) 33 games, 0 goals * Stefano Tacconi (Juventus and Italy) 34 games, 0 goals * Gianluca Pagliuca (Sampdoria and Italy) 33 games 0 goals * Thomas N’Kono (Espanyol and Cameroon) 37 games, 0 goals * Theo Snelders (Aberdeen and Netherlands) 36 games, 0 goals * Silvino (Benfica and Portugal) 38 games, 0 goals * Stanley Menzo (Ajax and Netherlands) 32 games, 0 goals * Stansilav Cherchesov (Lokomotiv Moscow/Spartak Moscow and USSR) 31 games, 0 goals in 1988, 39 games, 0 goals in 1989 * Andoni Zubizaretta (Barcelona and Spain) 36 games, 0 goals * Full-backs Andreas Brehme (Inter and West Germany) 31 games, 3 goals *** Paolo Maldini (AC Milan and Italy) 26 games, 0 goals *** Steve Nicol (Liverpool and Scotland) 38 games, 2 goals *** Giuseppe Bergomi (Inter and Italy) 32 games, 1 goal *** Mauro Tassotti (AC Milan and Italy) 30 games, 2 goals ** Quique Sanchez Flores (Valencia and Spain) 28 games, 0 goals * Stuart Pearce (Nottingham Forest and England) 36 games, 6 goals * Dan Petrescu (Steaua Bucharest and Romania) 28 games, 4 goals * Eric di Meco (Marseille and France) 33 games, 0 goals * Joao Pinto (Porto and Portugal) 35 games, 1 goal * Eric Gerets (PSV Einhoven and Belgium) 31 games, 1 goal * Paul Parker (QPR and England) 36 games, 0 goals * Antonio Veloso (Benfica and Portugal) 37 games, 2 goals * Volodymyr Bessonov (Dynamo Kiev and USSR) 19 games, 0 goals in 1988, 17 games, 5 goals in 1989 * Gary Stevens (Rangers and England) 35 games, 1 goal * Centre-backs Frank Rijkaard (AC Milan and Netherlands) 31 games, 4 goals *** Oscar Ruggeri (Logrones and Argentina) 34 games, 1 goal *** Karl Heinz Forster (Marseille and West Germany) 35 games, 1 goal ** Ricardo Ferri (Inter and Italy) 31 games, 0 goals ** Jurgen Kohler (FC Koln and West Germany) 27 games, 0 goals ** Tony Adams (Arsenal and England) 36 games, 4 goals ** Carlos Mozer (Benfica and Brazil) 29 games, 2 goals * Des Walker (Nottingham Forest and England) 34 games, 0 goals * Ciro Ferrara (Napoli and Italy) 27 games, 0 goals * Pietro Vierchowod (Sampdoria and Italy) 29 games, 1 goal * Ricardo Arias (Valencia and Spain) 25 games, 0 goals * Sweepers Franco Baresi (AC Milan and Italy) 33 games, 2 goals *** Ronald Koeman (PSV Eindhoven and Netherlands) 32 games, 14 goals *** Laurent Blanc (Montpellier and France) 35 games, 15 goals ** Rune Bratseth (Werder Bremen and Norway) 32 games, 5 goals ** Ricardo Gomes (Benfica and Brazil) 31 games, 8 goals ** Klaus Augenthaler (Bayern Munich and West Germany) 31 games, 6 goals * Manuel Sanchis (Real Madrid and Spain) 33 games, 3 goals * Richard Gough (Rangers and Scotland) 34 games, 5 goals * Aloisio (Barcelona and Brazil) 27 games, 0 goals * Central Midfielders Dunga (Fiorentina and Brazil) 30 games, 3 goals ** Rafael Martin Vasquez (Real Madrid and Spain) 35 games, 7 goals ** Junior (Pescara and Brazil) 34 games, 3 goals ** Roberto (Barcelona and Spain) 37 games, 11 goals ** Bryan Robson (Manchester United and England) 34 games, 4 goals * Olaf Thon (Schalke and West Germany) 32 games, 8 goals * Glen Stromberg (Atalanta and Sweden) 25 games, 1 goal * Robert Prytz (Atalanta and Sweden) 30 games, 2 goals * David Rocastle (Arsenal and England) 38 games, 6 goals * Gianfranco Matteoli (Inter and Italy) 32 games, 2 goals * Eusebio Sacristan (Barcelona and Spain) 37 games, 4 goals * Frank Sauzee (Marseille and France) 32 games, 4 goals * Jan Wouters (Ajax and Netherlands) 22 games, 0 goals * Attacking Midfielders Lothar Matthaus (Inter and West Germany) 32 games, 9 goals *** Diego Maradona (Napoli and Argentina) 26 games, 9 goals *** Gheorghe Hagi (Steaua Bucharest and Romania) 30 games, 31 goals *** Glenn Hoddle (Monaco and England) 32 games, 18 goals *** Ruud Gullit (AC Milan and Netherlands) 19 games, 5 goals ** Uwe Bein (Hamburg and West Germany) 28 games, 15 goals ** Andreas Moller (Borussia Dortmund and West Germany) 29 games, 11 goals ** Dragan Stojkovic (Red Star Belgrade and Yugoslavia) 29 games, 12 goals ** Rui Barros (Juventus and Portugal) 29 games, 12 goals ** Fernando (Valencia and Spain) 36 games, 14 goals ** Thomas von Heesen (Hamburg and West Germany) * Valdo (Benfica and Brazil) 28 games, 3 goals * Fyodor Cherenkov (Spartak Moscow and USSR) 30 games, 3 goals in 1988, 28 games, 7 goals in 1989 * Paul Merson (Arsenal and England) 37 games, 10 goals * Wingers Chris Waddle (Tottenham Hotspur and England) 38 games, 14 goals *** Michel (Real Madrid and Spain) 36 games, 13 goals *** Nicola Berti (Inter and Italy) 32 games, 7 goals ** Thomas Hassler (FC Koln and West Germany) 33 games, 6 goals ** Gerald Vanenburg (PSV Eindhoven and Netherlands) 34 games, 10 goals ** Roberto Donadoni (AC Milan and Italy) 21 games, 1 goal * Stefan Reuter (Bayern Munich and West Germany) 32 games, 0 goals * Mark Walters (Rangers and England) 31 games, 8 goals * Michal Bilek (Sparta Prague and Czechoslovakia) 30 games, 7 goals * John Barnes (Liverpool and England) 33 games, 8 goals * Txiki Beguiristain (Barcelona and Spain) 38 games, 12 goals * Forwards Roberto Baggio (Fiorentina and Italy) 30 games, 15 goals ** Hristo Stoichkov (CSKA Sofia and Bulgaria) 26 games, 23 goals ** Mark Hughes (Manchster United and Wales) 38 games, 14 goals * Ramon Diaz (Inter and Argentina) 33 games, 12 goals * George Weah (Monaco and Liberia) 23 games, 14 goals * Emilio Butragueno (Real Madrid and Spain) 33 games, 15 goals * Marius Lacatus (Steaua Bucharest and Romania) 28 games, 10 goals * Emil Kostadinov (CSKA Sofia and Bulgaria) 29 games, 12 goals * Enzo Francescoli (Metra Racing Paris and Uruguay) 26 games, 10 goals * Peter Beardsley (Liverpool and England) 37 games, 10 goals * Roberto Mancini (Sampdoria and Italy) 29 games, 9 goals * Cha Bum-Kun (Bayer Leverkusen and South Korea) 30 games, 3 goals * Strikers Marco Van Basten (AC Milan and Netherlands) 33 games, 19 goals *** Baltazar (Atletico Madrid and Brazil) 36 games, 35 goals *** Hugo Sanchez (Real Madrid and Mexico) 35 games, 27 goals ** Careca (Napoli and Brazil) 30 games, 19 goals ** Jean-Pierre Papin (Marseille and France) 36 games, 22 goals ** Gianluca Vialli (Sampdoria and Italy) 30 games, 14 goals ** Aldo Serena (Inter and Italy) 32 games, 22 goals ** Alan Smith (Arsenal and England) 36 games, 23 goals * Dorin Mateut (Dinamo Bucharest and Romania) 34 games, 43 goals * John Aldridge (Liverpool and Republic of Ireland) 35 games, 21 goals * Roland Wolfarth (Bayern Munich and West Germany) 33 games, 17 goals * Stefano Borgonovo (Fiorentina and Italy) 30 games, 14 goals * Victor Piturca (Steaua Bucharest and Romania) 22 games, 23 goals * Julio Salinas (Barcelona and Spain) 37 games, 20 goals * Romario (PSV Eindhoven and Netherlands) 24 games, 19 goals * Lubo Penev (CSKA Sofia and Bulgaria) 22 games, 21 goals * Tanju Colak (Galatasaray and Turkey) 34 games, 27 goals *
Solely based on the European games I watched of Napoli in that season, probably Careca deserves a world class season too. But I only base this on the games vs Juventus, Bayern Munich and the final (6 games in total).
It is not the goals that informed my impression but also the movement, off-the-ball runs and outlet he provided as well as the space he himself was able to create. He was quite nimble. For his abilities to create chances as a 'mere' striker, see as illustration the 1986WC stats. He also had good ratings: https://www.bigsoccer.com/community/...a-the-second-best-player-ever.1784415/page-21 Was just my impression while watching the UEFA Cup games, it is your list. Stoichkov also looked great from what I saw.
The only changes i feel relatively strong about is that I agree with PVH on moving Careca to *** and I also think Alan Smith should jump to **.
Apart from Don Balon, El Mundo Deportivo ranked Baltazar higher (circa #15). I see you consider only 9 Serie-A players with 3 stars. I search how he performed at his best. I found little info: he had great positioning, great finishing and good repertory to hit the ball. I also found he has a irregular career. There are some goalscorers who touch the ball just a couple of times during 90 minutes, but they managed to scored at least one goal. Since they don't get too much involved into the play build, they used to get low ratings (unless he gets a hat-trick or such things) Maybe Baltazar was one of these cases? According DB, in the 1988-89 season he appeared in 2 months in the top players: October (PotM) and May.
It's on the internet (in spanish) and the monthly ranking in the La Liga rankings thread. I will look for mags around that season.
It doesn't tell us about his general play but here are his goals: Possible positional changes: Rocastle to winger and Merson to forward? (I tried to confirm this as it was just my idea from memory but so far the links below are all I've got to go on - the profiles do hint that in 88/89 they were in those roles I think and that in 90/91 Merson played deeper and 91/92 Rocastle in the middle more??): Merson playing from forward areas it seems though it's only highlights/goals; Rocastle wearing 7 but not shown much and he probably kept that number throughout his time I think. There are other videos for 'Arsenal 89' including a mini and full season review and some highlights but I haven't watched them myself. http://www.arsenal.com/news/news-archive/gunners-greatest-players-26.-paul-merson http://www.arsenal.com/news/news-archive/gunners-greatest-players-16.-david-rocastle Rijkaard to CM? Martin Vazquez to AM or even winger? I didn't think of any extra players particularly as yet. I think Clough and Webb of Forest were included in some previous editions IIRC, and I wouldn't say that 88/89 was the stand-out season for either especially.
btw, there are a few comments about Baltazar on the Youtube video page for that video (in Spanish if msioux or anybody wants to translate anything interesting).
A suggested ranking of the World Class suggestions: 1. Marco van Basten 2. Lothar Matthaus 3. Franco Baresi 4. Diego Maradona 5. Andreas Brehme 6. Frank Rijkaard 7. Baltazar 8. Chris Waddle 9. Oscar Ruggeri 10. Gheorghe Hagi 11. Michel 12. Walter Zenga 13. Steve Nicol 14. Glenn Hoddle 15. Giuseppe Bergomi 16. Careca
Just wondering you have made some changes from the initial list or if you made a few translation errors. This list is missing Maldini and Koeman and you added Careca and Ruggeri.
A bit of both! I added Careca and Ruggeri (he should have had 3 stars in the original ranking) I accidentally omitted Maldini and Koeman. 1. Marco van Basten 2. Lothar Matthaus 3. Franco Baresi 4. Diego Maradona 5. Andreas Brehme 6. Frank Rijkaard 7. Baltazar 8. Chris Waddle 9. Oscar Ruggeri 10. Gheorghe Hagi 11. Michel 12. Paolo Maldini 13. Walter Zenga 14. Ronald Koeman 15. Steve Nicol 16. Glenn Hoddle 17. Giuseppe Bergomi 18. Careca
On what is the high placing of Brehme based? It is no criticism but that is very high for a full-back.
Primarily on him being named player of the year in Serie A. Appreciate it was based on average ratings but given Brehme's crossing ability I'd be surprised if he didn't weigh in with a lot of assists (admittedly not anything concrete).