Don't want to sound as the Germany hater again but he was subbed out against Goteborg and Steaua by Venables who on top of that also signed some British homies to put him under pressure. Rumors about a leave entered the press. Hamburg was in the running to sign him. Subs were not caused by injuries.
I think overall Venables mismanaged and Barca choked, but not necessarily Schuster who was probably their best player. It would have been awesome to watch River Plate vs Barcelona in the Toyota Cup, the actual match against Steau wasn't too bad either.
Thanks. Not saying he was phenomenal or worthy of three stars but I think ratings are sometimes overly harsh on a player. Do you know which ratings you have seen? Remember various team-mates saying good things about him which was sort of the 'last trick' of that generation of Juventus players. Looking at ratings of successors it seems that not only Laudrup drowned in the misery that followed (Ian Rush is famous). He was highlighted in previews of 1986WC. Was my impression too that he varied a bit in role throughout season, which is also visible in the shirt number he used like you say. In terms of stats I think he is phenomenal for his national team. A ratio of 0.35 (0.40 at age 31) is great for Denmark and I think he has about as much assists as goals for Denmark (miss details about three games though). So stats-wise for NT he was great. Elkjaer-Larsen is with his 38 goals in 69 games btw also among the best forwards in history, goal-wise. That is a great ratio esp. considering era (defensive minded 1980s) and NT (though he played more so than Laudrup in a strong generation). This were the five best rated SP (seconda punta) according to dbscalcio in 1985/1986 Stromberg (Atalanta) 6.607 Rummenigge (Internazionale) 6.542 Baldieri (Pisa) 6.466 Laudrup (Juventus) 6.448 Vialli (Sampdoria) 6.393
I think that is the source I'm thinking of - msioux's thread has details. Like you say, it could underplay his role/form a little, but some players got 7 out of 10 average or close to it in some seasons. I personally would go for at least 2 stars I think, but don't want to pressure comme - it's difficult with limited info and I'd be tempted with the quality/reputation of the player etc as well as the success of the team I suppose (he was the star midfield/forward player along with Platini). Partially I think Elkjaer's stats reflect favourably on Laudrup too (and not just for assists, but also momemtum of the game due to his skills and build up play which are a bit more intangible - good info about his number of assists for Denmark - I could only roughly guess how many were in 85/86 though). No surprise he was highlighted in WC previews as you point out - he was also part of the introduction to the 1986 WC video 'Hero' among about 10 players including Elkjaer and Platini (partly based on form in WC and partly reputation I guess - Francescoli was also one of them for example).
How many assists did he have in 1985-86 do you think? Yes, did not say that Laudrup should be higher but asked whether it was considered. See that Stromberg was also rated high for this year and not included here (which makes sense TBH).
I'm really not sure, but judging from the goals shown on Youtube it would seem to be less than he was getting at Barcelona for example (I saw some Juve goal videos a while ago but they maybe weren't complete so might be missing some goals?). He did set-up chances that weren't taken in the videos I showed but it's difficult/impossible to know how typical that was. He of course assisted Platini vs Barcelona too. I think I would tend to rate him higher, but perhaps 2 stars not 3 - it was his best season in Italy I think although his first one with Lazio would be a contender perhaps. And like you say he was seen as a world-class player (his performances for Denmark before the World Cup having an influence on that too). Perhaps the average ratings don't quite do him justice - it's really hard to say and would be subjective although so are they. Anyway, no problems with comme's decision and I remember I think that he gave him a higher rating for a Barcelona season already. Based on the quality of player generally speaking I think he'd be among the top end contenders but looking at goal output and consistent effect on results maybe gives a different viewpoint for the season (although play like he displayed vs Barcelona and Napoli on those videos would aid his team with momentum, belief etc I suppose and restrict the oppositions chances/possession in comparison to what they'd have if Laudrup was not keeping possession and creating openings like that - but although Serie A had a low gpg rate had he found ways to score/assist more I'm sure his case would be bolstered - he did do enough as far as Juventus were concerned to help their success it could be argued and ironically in that game against Barcelona which is the one they fell short in that mattered he set up many chances).
Yes, also thought about two stars. He was rated high in the end of the year 1985 Ballon d'Or, on fourth place. That was informed by his matches for Denmark (against USSR, which was seen as possibly strongest team in the world by then) but also shape for Juventus. In 1986 Ballon d'Or he only received one point despite a reasonably good 1986WC but 1986/1987 was not a good season for him and Juventus. He was also injured and missed 4 of the 13 Serie A games in 1986 of the 86/87 season. In the 9 games he played he was 4 times subbed out prematurely due to injury. All in all he only completed 5 of 13 games which was not a good start. Overview of 86/87: http://www.myjuve.it/players-juvent...p-matches-played-championship-85-Camp-92.aspx Did not think about other suggestions.
Unsurprisingly all the player ratings available from the time disagree with you and rate Schuster as one of the team's less impressive players in Europe.
Good video. I wasn't particularly close to giving him a higher rating based on his numbers and the ratings he received. I agree he was clearly scoring well, but I didn't see anything in terms of hard evidence to put him up into the two or three star categories.
Yes, his Ballon D'or placing was much higher in 1985 than 1986. The World Soccer awards results were different and it was in 1986 not 1985 when he got some votes: http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/wsoc86.html Perhaps, his fame had increased in Britain after the World Cup plus the full previous season in which the Intercontinental Cup took place late in 1985. Platini I believe was also better in the 1985 part of 85/86 than in 1986 for Juventus and also probably France. The 'Perfect 10' book hints at this too as you'll have seen - there is a quote stating that he was in great form at the end of '85 isn't there? For the season as a whole, I can see why comme would have a different number 1 player.
It's very difficult I think when you can't open a DVD with Serie A games from 85/86 and sit through them. You also haven't got the data that is available for the World Cups, for the Serie A and European games or for other International games (which were a big plus for him at that stage generally as he was doing great with Denmark). I'm not sure how many quotes or reviews might be available. Anyway, it's still an interesting project that's well worth doing I think. It's an informative collation of the top players around each year.
Think too that is fairly correct although he was still good in the second part. In the tie against Barcelona (March 1986) their opponent survived fairly comfortably in the second leg but Platini still caused danger (scored a goal -assisted by Laudrup as you said- and had around 80th minute a good chance too). Against Udinese (relegation candidate) Platini saved two precious points for Juventus a few days before the first leg against Barcelona was played; it was seen as a sign that he was 'ready'. At the end of 1985 he was widely seen as the best, or at least most prominent, player around (with Intercontinental Cup game fresh in mind) and when he received his third Ballon d'Or he literally said "I have surpassed [my idol] Cruyff." The whole 'football community' congratulated him without a bad word, including Pelé, Beckenbauer, Cruyff. But in 1986 some cracks appeared in the building, I think. When manager Trappatoni announced his departure in March 1986 (exactly one day after the first leg against Barcelona). Platini used the word "betrayal" against journalists. Platini had extended his contract a short while before because Trappatoni had urged him to do so, with as aim to extend the 'Juve project' for a few more years. In May 1986 Platini expressed his doubts about various things. About the chances of France (he felt that some key figures were fading away), his motivation, his physical state and many other things. Actually, also in that one he praised Laudrup for bringing in some fresh blood as addition to the old guard. There is some more what makes me think that but yes, I've the same impression as yours.
Good. I'm pleased it is useful. As always, I don't claim it to be definitive but is meant to be as accurate as it can be. If better information comes to light or a persuasive argument can be made I'm always happy to amend.
Also good to note is that he scored in first 15 rounds 8 goals (0 PK) and last 15 rounds 4 goals (2 of them were a PK). I know statistics do not say everything and the lower the numbers (as was the case in Serie A) the less reliable they are but the drop-off is considerable. http://www.myjuve.it/players-juvent...i-matches-played-championship-53-Camp-91.aspx Think he was still good in second part but 4 goals in 15 games are the type of stats for a 'normal' elite midfielder. EDIT: If I have one criticism about these ratings it is the positioning of Gullit as attacking midfielder.
Dunno which sources or methods you used. It is hard to classify him. Can think of two ways mainly. The first is to find a compromise between all positions, then CMF applies as average/mean of all positions. If counting which position he played most often then defense or forward line would make sense.
comme made a start on 90/91 in this thread (I think it was going to be the first season initially): https://www.bigsoccer.com/community/threads/help-wanted.1809146/page-2
It really depends to be honest. Maybe 3 weeks or so. I did actually do 1990-1 before starting again with the 80s. It's up somewhere so will try and find it for you. I'd hope to be back on the 90s by the spring time.
Posted position on line-up + goals scored on first page at post #2. If you have seen other sources who labelled him as AM that is interesting to hear. https://www.bigsoccer.com/community/...s-of-the-season-1985-6.1979465/#post-26895636
No, not at all. Just that I missed that because of the spolier tag. I tend to often have some preconceived ideas about where certain people played based on where I saw them most. So I automatically assume Gullit was an AM because that is where I mostly saw him play. Same with Laudrup. Meanwhile for me Rijkaard is first and foremost a CM, rather than a defender. It definitely helps when there is information on where they actually played.
You probably knew it but Rijkaard and Gullit knew each other from the age of eight. They played against each other on the streets of Amsterdam as kids (before they joined a club). Just say it for the others here because I've not mentioned it before I think. Rijkaard played in first Milan season also as defender and when he returned to Ajax he mostly played as defender as well (though an attacking orientated one). For NT often too. Sometimes he played both roles in one and the same match like against Germany at euro92 when he played one half as defender and one as midfielder. Think Rijkaard was always switched between both roles but early in his career (until 1985 I'd say) the emphasis was on defense. His former youth trainers (Van Wijk - forget the name) and trainer Cruyff pressed him to become more of a midfielder and a 'leader' as well. They had the opinion that he scored too little (they advised Van Basten to follow the opposite route and play deeper as #6 midfielder). They clashed with as result that Rijkaard walked away to Zaragoza (earlier he tried to join PSV - how different his career had been if that had happened in 1987?). In this interview Cruyff expressed it like this: "Rijkaard was of course a very amiable person. He had the charisma/presence of a leader, the qualities of a leader but he did not always want to be one [in 1986]." Think Gullit also played deeper at times when he joined Sampdoria and later Chelsea. He anyway played with #4 for Sampdoria including the famous game where he ended the unbeaten streak of his former club Milan. Some more are hard to categorize like Lothar Matthaus. Was he an CM or AM in his prime?
I did not see this team play so I am kind of shooting in the dark here, but I am surprised not to see a few more Anderlecht players listed. They won there domestic league and made it to the semis of the European cup knocking out a very good Bayern team on the way and they only have two players listed both at *. A young Scifo scored some important European goals vs Bayern and Steaua Bucharest and earned a move to Inter a couple years later, was he close to * consideration?
Scifo was included I think in both the previous seasons versions, but I agree those contributions make a decent case (footage of such games on Youtube with some of his goals). PuckVanHeel mentioned before that his form did take a dip (or two) at times while still in Belgium though. 83/84 was when he broke through and came to everyone's attention including people in Italy who thought he could play for Italy - he also did well in the Uefa Cup including a goal vs Forest. 84/85 was a year where he scored a lot of goals. Puck mentioned that Lozano returned to Anderlecht and Scifo's role changed a bit.