Regarding the UEFA topscorers thing: has a good website (not wikipedia) a good list with the topscorer lists of the UEFA Cup campaign? I know this page http://www.rsssf.com/ec/ec3tops.html But that only mentions who came out on top. Like to see a complete breakdown for UEFA Cup/EC/CWC without delving into the books.
Looking for Hungarian line-ups, the wingers were Fazekas, Csapo and Nagy. And the CF was Torocsik (arguably best rated hungary player at late 70's - early 80s). So, in NT, Tibor Nyilasi played as AM or playmaker.
Indeed he is listed as Midfielder on the Hungarian wikipedia site. Striker for Austria Wien for sure though. Pretty lame goals. Two blunders.
Maybe, Hungary like an old-fashioned team could played like that. But, most euro teams by then used to play with a false winger (ala Conti), so most like a 4-4-2.
I guess he played both roles, but in a 4-4-2 could be the AM or SS. Yes, Italy in '82 had 2 strikers (or 1 striker and one forward we could say) and only one real winger didn't they. Seems Italian Club sides lined-up similar unsymmetrical formations in Serie A too around that time. Thanks again.
I read it in El Grafico special edition for WC78, saying that Torocsik was labeled as the new Florian Albert. In the article also mentioned Nyilasi as second best, and then, the likes of Fazekas, Balint. So, in NT, Nyilasi seems to played mostly as playmaker throughout his career.
What is a good website for historical player appearances? I used to use http://www.playerhistory.com/ but it has been taken down.
The 'national football teams' website is usually a good one. At least, they indicate with a sign that the appearances are verified and in most of the cases that is correct.
Excellent. That seems to use data from player history. That is superb. Thanks very much. That has just made my day.
On youtube are highlights of two games I've seen that surprised me a lot when I saw them. In particular the outstanding technical ability of the Croatians (in particular visible in second leg). Spoiler (Move your mouse to the spoiler area to reveal the content) Show Spoiler Hide Spoiler It is worth the time to watch it. I think if all club games of that season this one surprised me the most in a positive fashion. The Roma-Dundee and Juventus-Manchester ties were also entertaining though just as a few Serie A games of that season. I thought, because this thread deals with the 1983-84 season, I'll share it.
Wanted to let you know that I'm tracking all Bergkamp and Gullit goals + assists for NT and I came again across a friendly against Wales in 1992. Kieft came in the field after half time and made two assists - he played a bit deep-lying as he did at PSV in the same era. I thought, I let you know this. He became more of a creator later on in his career, esp. for Romario after 1989 but also in NT I remember now. Gullit had two assists in that same game too btw.
Thanks. Yeah, I remembered him a little from the Dutch national team too. It does seem he was more of a static type centre-forward early in his career (sort of the opposite to a lot of other players), but to be fair with Cruyff in great form and the Ajax team generally providing a good amount of chances he was well served by waiting for the ball to arrive. Of course, I'm going off highlights (from the videos etc you posted) to form my impression of a likeable player with good scoring instincts, but perhaps a player who didn't do much individually to make people say 'wow' in those early years at Ajax - he thrived off Cruyff doing so on a few occasions though.
This is the revised version with ratings: Goalkeeper Peter Shilton (Southampton and England) 42 games, 0 goals *** Rinat Dasaev (Spartak Moscow and Soviet Union) 34 games, 0 goals in 1983, 34 games, 0 goals in 1984 *** Harald Schumacher (Koln and West Germany) 33 games, 0 goals ** Jim Leighton (Aberdeen and Scotland) 36 games, 0 goals ** Andoni Zubizarreta (Athletic Bilbao and Spain) 34 games, 0 goals ** Walter Zenga (Internazionale and Italy) 30 games, 0 goals ** Franco Tancredi (Roma and Italy) 30 games, 0 goals * Neville Southall (Everton and Wales) 35 games, 0 goals * Joel Bats (Auxerre and France) 36 games, 0 goals * Silviu Lung (Universitatea Craiova and Romania) 29 games, 0 goals * Bruce Grobelaar (Liverpool and Zimbabwe) 42 games, 0 goals * Mikhail Buryukov (Zenit Leningrad and Soviet Union) 34 games, 0 goals in 1983, 34 games,0 goals in 1984* Cervantes (Real Murcia and Spain) 28 games, 0 goals* Stefano Tacconi (Juventus and Italy) 23 games, 0 goals * Manuel Bento (Benfica and Portugal) 29 games, 0 goals * Full-back Antonio Cabrini (Juventus and Italy)29 games, 5 goals *** Phil Neal (Liverpool and England) 41 games, 1 goal ** Patrick Battiston (Bordeaux and France) 36 games, 3 goals ** Santiago Urquiaga (Athletic Bilbao and Spain) 33 games, 0 goals ** Manuel Amoros (Monaco and France) 35 games, 8 goals ** Manfred Kaltz (Hamburg and West Germany) 27 games 9 goals * Bernd Forster (Stuttgart and West Germany) 31 games, 2 goals* Thierry Tusseau (Bordeaux and France) 24 games, 2 goals * Andreas Brehme (Kaiserslautern and West Germany) 33 games, 8 goals * Claudio Gentile (Juventus and Italy) 24 games, 0 goals * Rafael Gordillo (Real Betis and Spain) 34 games, 0 goals * Kenny Sansom (Arsenal and England) 40 games, 1 goal* Mike Duxbury (Manchester United and England) 39 games, 0 goals * Joao Pinto (Porto and Portugal) 26 games, 0 goals * Terry Fenwick (Queens Park Rangers and England) 41 games, 10 goals * Viv Anderson (Nottingham Forest and England) 40 games, 6 goals * Sweeper Morten Olsen (Anderlecht and Denmark) 31 games, 0 goals *** Alan Hansen (Liverpool and Scotland) 42 games, 1 goal *** Gaetano Scirea (Juventus and Italy) 30 games, 2 goals ** Daniel Passarella (Fiorentina and Argentina) 27 games, 7 goals ** Hans-Jurgen Dorner (Dynamo Dresden and East Germany) 26 games, 3 goals * Antonio Maceda (Sporting Gijon and Spain) 30 games, 5 goals * Danny Blind (Sparta Rotterdam and Netherlands) 34 games, 5 goals * Maxime Bossis (Nantes and France) 36 games, 3 goals* Velimir Zajec (Dinamo Zagreb and Yugoslavia) 32 games, 4 goals * Mark Lawrenson (Liverpool and Republic of Ireland) 42 games, 0 goals * Matthias Herget (Bayer Uerdingen and West Germany) 30 games, 8 goals * Mark Wright (Southampton and England) 29 games, 1 goal * Stopper Karlheinz Forster (Stuttgart and West Germany) 29 games, 2 goals *** Willie Miller (Aberdeen and Scotland) 34 games, 2 goals ** Migueli (Barcelona and Spain) 30 games, 0 goals ** Pietro Vierchowod (Sampdoria and Italy) 30 games, 2 goals ** Inigo Liceranzu (Athletic Bilbao and Spain) 32 games, 7 goals ** Guido Buchwald (Stuttgart and West Germany) 34 games, 3 goals * Oscar Regenhardt (Malaga and Argentina) 32 games, * Andoni Goicochea (Athletic Bilbao and Spain) 28 games, 2 goals * Alex McLeish (Aberdeen and Scotland) 32 games, 2 goals * Central midfielders Graeme Souness (Liverpool and Scotland) 37 games, 7 goals *** Paulo Roberto Falcao (Roma and Brazil) 27 games, 5 goals *** Lothar Matthaus (Borussia Moenchengladbach and West Germany) 34 games, 11 goals ** Glenn Stromberg (Benfica and Sweden) 26 games, 9 goals ** Bryan Robson (Manchester United and England) 33 games, 12 goals ** Agostino di Bartolomei (Roma and Italy) 28 games, ** Juan Barbas (Real Zaragoza and Argentina) 30 games, 7 goals ** Jean Tigana (Bordeaux and France) 32 games, 1 goal ** Toninho Cerezo (Roma and Brazil) 30 games, 6 goals * Ray Wilkins (Manchester United and England) 42 games, 3 goals * Marco Tardelli (Juventus and Italy) 28 games, 0 goals * Luis Fernandez (Paris Saint-Germain and France) 35 games, 3 goals * Louis van Gaal (Sparta Rotterdam and Netherlands) 34 games, 2 goals * Attacking midfielders Michel Platini (Juventus and France) 28 games, 20 goals *** Alain Giresse (Bordeaux and France) 34 games, 16 goals *** Johan Cruyff (Feyenoord and Netherlands) 33 games, 11 goals *** Asgeir Sigurvinsson (Stuttgart and Iceland) 31 games, 12 goals *** Liam Brady (Sampdoria and Republic of Ireland) 28 games, 4 goals ** Glenn Hoddle (Tottenham Hotspur and England) 24 games, 4 goals * Herbert Prohaska (Austria Vienna and Austria) 28 games, 5 goals * Gennadiy Litovchenko (Dnipro Dnipropetrovsk and Soviet Union) 24 games, 5 goals in 1983, 33 games, 7 goals in 1984 * Khoren Oganesian (Aarat Yerevan and Soviet Union) 30 games, 15 goals in 1983, 30 games, 9 goals in 1984 * Norbert Meier (Werder Bremen and West Germany) 33 games, 14 goals * David Armstrong (Southampton and England) 42 games, 15 goals * Enzo Scifo (Anderlecht and Belgium) 25 games, 5 goals * Wingers Bernard Genghini (Monaco and France) 38 games, 18 goals ** Ruud Gullit (Feyenoord and Netherlands) 33 games, 15 goals ** Gordon Strachan (Aberdeen and Scotland) 25 games, 13 goals ** Pierre Littbarski (Koln and West Germany) 33 games, 17 goals ** Roberto Lopez Ufarte (Real Sociedad and Spain) 32 games, 12 goals * Klaus Berggreen (Pisa and Denmark) 28 games, 7 goals * Geronimo Barbadillo (Avellino and Peru) 27 games, 3 goals * Franco Causio (Udinese and Italy) 30 games, 3 goals * Pietro Fanna (Hellas Verona and Italy) 28 games, 5 goals * Francisco Carrasco (Barcelona and Spain) 34 games, 11 goals * Marcos Alonso (Barcelona and Spain) 34 games, 12 goals * Chalana (Benfica and Bordeaux) 23 games, 7 goals * Forwards Zico (Udinese and Brazil) 24 games, 19 goals *** Karl-Heinz Rummenigge (Bayern Munich and West Germany) 29 games, 26 goals *** Kenny Dalglish (Liverpool and Scotland) 33 games, 7 goals ** Juanito (Real Madrid and Spain) 31 games, 17 goals ** Magico Gonzalez (Cadiz and El Salvador) 31 games, 14 goals * Tibor Nyilasi (Austria Vienna and Hungary) 29 games, 26 goals * Yuri Gavrilov (Spartak Moscow and Soviet Union) 34 games, 18 goals in 1983, 34 games, 8 goals in 1984 * Preben Elkjaer-Larsen (Lokeren and Denmark) 32 games, 14 goals * Brian McClair (Celtic and Scotland) 35 games, 23 goals * Jan Ceuelemans (Club Brugge and Belgium) 31 games, 15 goals * Peter Davenport (Nottingham Forest and England) 33 games, 15 goals * Strikers Ian Rush (Liverpool and Wales) 41 games, 32 goals *** Marco Van Basten (Ajax and Netherlands) 26 games 28 goals ** Bernard Lacombe (Bordeaux and France) 35 games, 18 goals * Gary Lineker (Leicester City and England) 39 games, 22 goals * Rudi Völler (Werder Bremen and West Germany) 31 games, 18 goals * Klaus Allofs (Koln and West Germany) 34 games, 20 goals * Frank Mill (Borussia Moenchengladbach and West Germany) 32 games, 19 goals * Paolo Rossi (Juventus and Italy) 30 games, 13 goals Nico Claesen (Seraing and Belgium) 32 games, 27 goals * Patrice Garande (Auxerre and France) 37 games, 21 goals * Delio Onnis (Toulon and Argentina) 21 goals * Andrej Szarmach (Auxerre and Poland) 35 games, 20 goals * Nene (Benfica and Portugal) 26 games, 21 goals * Peter Houtman (Feyenoord and Netherlands) 32 games, 21 goals * World Class 1. Ian Rush 2. Michel Platini 3. Zico 4. Karl-Heinz Rummenigge 5. Karlheinz Forster 6. Graeme Souness 7. Alain Giresse 8. Johan Cruyff 9. Morten Olsen 10. Asgeir Sigurvinsson 11. Peter Shilton 12. Paulo Roberto Falcao 13. Antonio Cabrini 14. Rinat Dasaev 15. Alan Hansen
Nice attempt again. Surprising to see Rush at top. Good to see that Souness finally gets a WC rating (was surprised to not see it in other seasons). Rummenigge surprisingly high while in 1981-82 I saw him surprisingly low in the list. A pity that ratings aren't available for France in 1980s. Would be interesting to see Equipe or France Football ratings for those years. Btw, what was the reason to give Gentile a WC rating for 1981-82 despite low newspaper ratings? [of course newspapers can be blatantly wrong!]
I think Rush was the player who performed best across multiple competitions. Prolific in the league, Europe (particularly with important goals) and both the League and FA Cups. I need to check on Gentile.
Regarding Rummenigge I think he was in 1981-82 still in his prime despite suffering an injury at March 1982 (he was mostly healthy between September 1981 and March 1982 as far as I can see). He also did better in Europe and for national team, compared with 1983-84. It is strange that his actual average rating in 1983-84 was better (2.34 vs 2.31), and also more often included in the 'team of the week' (10 vs 7 times) while he received a downgrade from WC to IC. Maybe the less good form for NT and in European club games had a role as well as euro84 itself maybe (Derwall received a lot of criticism beforehand and so did Rummenigge). He scored more in his own league of course as in 1981-82 but in the earlier season he had zero PK goals (three in 1983-84) and played out of position which had also an effect on the stats. Anyway, what I've read (and maybe influences my thoughts) is that he was in 1981-82 considered in contention for best player of the world while that was in 1983-84 not the case any more. It is also possible perhaps that in 1983-84 the competition was a bit heavier as two years earlier.
IMO the Belgian players are rated a bit too low especially with Olsen having three stars (and Ceulemans + Scifo one star). Also Elkjaer above Ceulemans (who wasn't a forward IMO) makes me a bit sad Elkjaer was of course one of the faces of euro84, that is right and Ceulemans, Olsen and Scifo played all also well IMO (Scifo especially againt Yugoslavia and Ceulemans against Yugoslavia and Denmark). All three appeared in teams of the tournament but Elkjaer was a sure 'lock' in those. [maybe also helped by the observation that the early to mid 80s had a dearth of good strikers/forwards; at least not as heavy competition as some other positions]
As addition (I felt it is necessary to give a balanced picture), He was transferred for the second highest or third highest fee in the world at that time to Internazionale. So he was still a hot target but players can sometimes be a bit overvalued or undervalued. Anyhow, I found something else that maybe accounts for the kicker downgrade other than NT and European form. This is his average rating against other top five sides in 1981/1982: Hamburg 2.0 and 4.0 - 0 goals Koln 3.0 and 2.0 - 0 goals Kaiserslautern 1.0 and 3.0 - 1 goal Werder Bremen 2.0 and 3.0 - 1 goal Average of 2.50 against 'top teams', 2 goals In 1983/1984: Stuttgart 3.0 and 3.0 - 0 goals Hamburg 2.0 and 2.0 - 1 goal Borussia Monchengladbach 2.0 and 5.0 - 2 goals (1PK) Koln 3.0 and 2.0 - 1 goal Average of 2.65 against 'top teams', 4 goals. This seems a small difference in rating (0.15 points, lower is better) but he actually scored more in 1983-84 and that often translates by definition in higher match ratings. So that might account for another small reason why they downgraded him, the performance against direct competitors despite scoring more goals.