Really good stuff. I do like those ratings (and have used them heavily myself) but I do think it's often misleading depending on the league and the paper. I mean Zoff conceded 16 goals in 30 games for instance. Now what were the people watching him looking for? Did they rate goalkeepers more highly who had more work to do but let in more goals? If Zoff only had a couple of saves to make but kept a clean sheet, what rating did he get? Quini and Pruzzo were (off the top of my head) top scorers in their leagues. What did other strikers do to earn their ratings? Still, your notes are (as always) much appreciated.
Your're welcome mate! I also think that these roles are really complicated to rate. Both, keeper and striker, are players (depending club/style) who can be almost 90' without touch the ball, but in one single action can decided a match (in favour or against). I think that in most cases, ratings favour players who are in constant action.
Here is my revision of the first season along with player appearances etc. Goalkeepers Luis Arconada (Real Sociedad and Spain) 34 games, 0 goals *** Dino Zoff (Juventus and Italy) 30 games, 0 goals *** Harald Schumacher (Koln and West Germany) 34 games, 0 goals ** Peter Shilton (Nottingham Forest and England) 40 games, 0 goals ** Manuel Bento (Benfica and Portugal) 30 games, 0 goals * Ronnie Hellstroem (Kaiserslautern and Sweden) 34 games, 0 goals * Urruti (Espanyol and Spain) 31 games, 0 goals * Ray Clemence (Liverpool and England) 41 games, 0 goals * Rinat Dasaev (Spartak Moscow and Russia) 34 games, 0 goals in 1980, 34 games 0 goals in 1981 * Jean Castaneda (St Etienne and France) 35 games, 0 goals * Thomas Ravelli (Osters and Sweden) 26 games, 0 goals in 1980, 26 games, 0 goals in 1981 * Hans-Ulrich Grapenthin (Carl Zeiss Jena and East Germany) 26 games, 0 goals * Full-backs Antonio Cabrini (Juventus and Italy) 28 games, 7 goals *** Maxime Bossis (Nantes and France) 37 games, 0 goals ** Manfred Kaltz (Hamburg and West Germany) 34 games, 7 goals ** Mick Mills (Ipswich Town and England) 33 games, 0 goals ** Jose Camacho (Real Madrid and Spain) 34 games, 0 goals * Hugo Hovenkamp (AZ Alkmaar and Holland) 30 games, 5 goals * Kenny Swain (Aston Villa and England) 42 games, 0 goals * Rafael Gordillo (Real Betis and Spain) 34 games, 3 goals * Patrick Battiston (St Etienne and France) 38 games, 4 goals * Wolfgang Dremmler (Bayern Munich and West Germany) 33 games, 1 goals * Kenny Sansom (Arsenal and England) 42 games, 3 goals * Cundi (Sporting Gijon and Spain) 33 games, 5 goals * Eric Gerets (Standard Liege and Belgium) 29 games, 0 goals * Phil Neal (Liverpool and England) 42 games, 2 goals * Sweepers Ruud Krol (Napoli and Holland) 29 games, 1 goal *** Gaetano Scirea (Juventus and Italy) 29 games, 4 goals *** Aleksandr Chivadze (Dinamo Tbilisi and USSR) 31 games, 5 goals in 1980, 28 games, 2 goals in 1981 *** Bruno Pezzey (Eintracht Frankfurt and Austria) 31 games, 10 goals ** John Metgod (AZ Alkmaar and Holland) 34 games, 3 goals * Wilfried Hannes (Borussia Moenchengladbach and West Germany) 33 games, 16 goals * Luc Millecamps (Waregem and Belgium) * Russell Osman (Ipswich Town and England) 42 games, 1 goal * Dieter Bast (Bochum and West Germany) 34 games, 5 goals * Alan Hansen (Liverpool and Scotland) 36 games, 1 goal * Stoppers Terry Butcher (Ipswich Town and England) 40 games, 4 goals ** Hans-Pieter Briegel (Kaiserslautern and West Germany) 34 games, 6 goals ** Miguel Tendillo (Valencia and Spain) 31 games, 4 goals ** Claudio Gentile (Juventus and Italy) 29 games, 0 goals * Karl-Heinz Forster (Stuttgart and West Germany) 30 games, 2 goals * Allan Evans (Aston Villa and Scotland) 39 games, 7 goals * Pietro Vierchowod (Como and Italy) 30 games, 2 goals * Gerard Janvion (St Etienne and France) 37 games, 0 goals * Ricardo Arias (Valencia and Spain) 29 games, 0 goals * Marius Tresor (Bordeaux and France) 25 games, 0 goals * Phil Thompson (Liverpool and England) 25 games, 0 goals * Central midfielders Paulo Roberto Falcao (Roma and Brazil) 25 games, 3 goals *** Uli Stielike (Real Madrid and West Germany) 29 games, 5 goals *** Paul Breitner (Bayern Munich and West Germany) 30 games, 17 goals *** Graeme Souness (Liverpool and Scotland) 37 games, 6 goals *** Marco Tardelli (Juventus and Italy) 28 games, 7 goals ** Arnold Muhren (Ipswich Town and Holland) 41 games, 5 goals ** Miguel Alonso (Real Sociedad and Spain) 33 games, 3 goals ** Terry McDermott (Liverpool and England) 40 games, 13 goals ** Jan Peters (AZ Alkmaar and Holland) 28 games, 8 goals ** Jesus Zamora (Real Sociedad and Spain) 34 games, 7 goals * Leonid Buryak (Dynamo Kiev and USSR) 28 games, 9 goals in 1980, 29 games, 10 goals in 1981 * Herbert Neumann (Udinese and West Germany) 25 games, 1 goal * Dirceu (Atletico Madrid and Brazil) 28 games, 9 goals * Felix Magath (Hamburg and West Germany) 33 games, 10 goals * Bryan Robson (West Bromwich Albion and England) 40 games, 10 goals * Daniel Solsona (Valencia and Spain) 32 games, 9 goals * Soren Lerby (Ajax and Denmark) 33 games, 10 goals * Giuseppe Dossena (Bologna and Italy) 29 games, 5 goals * Bernd Schuster (Barcelona and West Germany) 23 games, 11 goals * Osvaldo Ardiles (Tottenham Hotspur and Argentina) 36 games, 5 goals * Attacking midfielders Michel Platini (St Etienne and France) 35 games, 20 goals *** John Wark (Ipswich Town and Scotland) 40 games, 18 goals *** David Kipiani (Dinamo Tbilisi and USSR) 31 games, 8 goals in 1980, 18 games, 8 goals in 1981 *** Liam Brady (Juventus and Republic of Ireland) 28 games, 8 goals ** Joao Alves (Benfica and Portugal) 30 games, 14 goals ** Herbert Prohaska (Internazionale and Austria) 28 games, 5 goals * Hansi Muller (Stuttgart and West Germany) 32 games, 11 goals * Giancarlo Antognoni (Fiorentina and Italy) 27 games, 9 goals * Asgeir Sigurvinsson (Standard Liege and Iceland) 31 games, 8 goals * Glenn Hoddle (Tottenham Hotspur and England) 38 games, 12 goals * Kristen Nygaard (AZ Alkmaar and Denmark) 14 games, 9 goals * Wingers Frans Thijssen (Ipswich Town and Holland) 31 games, 3 goals *** Remaz Shengelia (Dinamo Tbilisi and USSR) 32 games, 17 goals in 1980, 31 games, 23 goals in 1981 *** Juanito (Outside right) (Real Madrid and Spain) 33 games, 19 goals ** Bernd Hölzenbein (Eintracht Frankfurt and West Germany) 27 games, 11 goals ** Enzo Ferrero (Sporting Gijon and Argentina) 31 games, 15 goals * Dominique Rocheteau (Paris Saint-Germain and France) 37 games, 16 goals * Roberto Lopez Ufarte (Real Sociedad and Spain) 31 games, 5 goals * Bruno Conti (Roma and Italy) 27 games, 5 goals * Bernard Genghini (Sochaux and France) 36 games, 13 goals Forwards Karl-Heinz Rummenigge (Bayern Munich and West Germany) 34 games, 29 goals *** Kenny Dalglish (Liverpool and Scotland) 34 games, 8 goals ** Oleg Blokhin (Dynamo Kiev and USSR) 33 games, 19 goals in 1980, 29 games, 19 goals in 1981 ** Manfred Burgsmuller (Borussia Dortmund and West Germany) 33 games, 27 goals ** Bernard Lacombe (Bordeaux and France) 34 games, 18 goals ** Yuri Gavrilov (Spartak Moscow and USSR) 34 games, 5 goals in 1980, 33 games, 21 goals in 1981 * Tibor Nyilasi (Ferencvaros and Hungary) 34 games, 30 goals * Allan Simonsen (Barcelona and Denmark) 33 games, 10 goals * Johnny Rep (St Etienne and Holland) 32 games, 14 goals * Walter Schachner (Austria Vienna and Austria) 29 games, 13 goals * Strikers Roberto Pruzzo (Torino and Italy) 28 games, 18 goals ** Peter Withe (Aston Villa and England) 36 games, 20 goals ** Quini (Barcelona and Spain) 30 games, 20 goals ** Delio Onnis (Tours and Argentina) 38 games, 24 goals * Gary Shaw (Aston Villa and England) 40 games, 18 goals * Jesus Sastrustegui (Real Sociedad and Spain) 28 games, 16 goals * Erwin Vandenbergh (Lierse and Belgium) 33 games, 24 goals * Uwe Krausse (Stade Lavallois and West Germany) 23 goals * Ruud Geels (Sparta Rotterdam and Holland) 30 games, 22 goals * Steve Archibald (Tottenham Hotspur and Scotland) 41 games, 20 goals * Georgi Slavkov (Botev Plovdiv and Bulgaria) 31 goals * Nene (Benfica and Portugal) 30 games, 20 goals * World Class (16) 1. Karl-Heinz Rummenigge 2. Michel Platini 3. Paulo Roberto Falcao 4. Uli Stielike 5. Paul Breitner 6. Ruud Krol 7. John Wark 8. Antonio Cabrini 9. Luis Arconada 10. Graeme Souness 11. Gaetano Scirea 12. Alexander Chivadze 13. David Kipiani 14. Frans Thijsen 15. Dino Zoff 16. Ramaz Shengelia
What are the changes you made and the considerations? I guess Wark over Thijssen (and any other Ipswich player) was predominantly based on the Ballon d'Or ranking? edit: Jao Alves is an interesting new appearance.
I recently discovered that in case of the English FWA award also the second to sixth places are revealed. Do you know more about this and where one can find it? I can only find it for some seasons. Maybe you can post them (in case World Soccer published them too)?
Also interesting is that you rate Stielike over Breitner while the German journalists had a different view, and not even slightly. Of course, I don't mind if those journalists are wrong
The new inclusions were: Grapenthin McDermott Lerby Genghini Joao Alves Out went: Russmann Marcos Marini Also I tweaked the provisional star ratings all round. I'm reasonably happy with this rating now but realise it's still some way off perfect.
I think it is the PFA award which has six nominees but I might be wrong. I don't have the details though. I have been looking for them myself for some time. I've searched the newspaper archives available online and not found anything.
Because the FWA award to Thijssen was hot news I know them partially for 1981: 1) Thijssen 2) Mills 3) Wark Muhren was six. Don't know it for all years. Btw, those same articles also mentioned that the PFA one was more prestigious.
If you mean: they underrated him for that reason - that is the most plausible reason. If you mean: he was ineligible, yes he was. https://www.bigsoccer.com/community/...hres-footballer-of-the-year-1980-1990.805914/ Another reason (in my eyes that is) why Stielike tends to be underrated is because he had even in his own country the image of a nasty player and because he did not always play consistently well for national team. Stielike was also physically not on par with the others. I think you included Alves of Benfica as addition because Benfica did well in that yeardomestically and in Europe? So you included their best player?
And what were the other thoughts? Anyhow, good effort. Only sad that I see way too much Germans in the world class list I would not put Stielike over Krol or Wark over Thijssen by that large margin. Conditionally they were a class on their own though. A good example is this match: [5:40 onwards] The opponent was out of gas and they could walk freely across the pitch without challenge. The same happened in the semi-final (with Liverpool out of gas) but luckily, this time one goal wasn't sufficient. Platini on second place is defensible but also subject to challenge I think. Rummenigge at #1 is beyond question (in form at all competitions).
To be honest that was effectively it. With a player like Joao Alves (who was a classy midfielder) if he played a significant proportion of games and scored a good number of goals you can pretty much take it as read he was playing well for Benfica given their title victory. I agree that Rummenigge is a clear first choice and that Platini is debateable. I think this was a year where numbers 2-16 were pretty close to each other.
To be honest that was effectively it. With a player like Joao Alves (who was a classy midfielder) if he played a significant proportion of games and scored a good number of goals you can pretty much take it as read he was playing well for Benfica given their title victory. I agree that Rummenigge is a clear first choice and that Platini is debateable. I think this was a year where numbers 2-16 were pretty close to each other.
Also agree there ... in 80-81: from Keegan, Rummenigge to Platini, Krol Breitner, or Blokhin, Liam Brady ,Schuster were just not clear! Hence Rummenigge deserved it more For me , from 78-82 the world best players are actually missing in Ballon D'or pool (Zico and Maradona)
I agree. Rummenigge his primary job was goalscoring. He had an assist once in a while but fussballdaten, which uses wide assist rules (a rebound shot is also counted as an assist) clearly shows he did not provide much. Kicker had him also down as an 'inside forward'. Rummenigge was good in every competition but in historical perspective not superior (even his career NT average is not that outstanding). Still, he was topscorer in European Cup and topscorer in Bundesliga in 1981. Also great for NT. I agree that a Zico or Maradona had provided tough competition but to be honest, despite his greatness, Maradona his goal average clearly took a hit when he played outside of his domestic league. That wasn't the case with Rummenigge, not at this stage of his career at least. His ratio, club achievements and personal credentials were good at all levels.