The best players of Euro 80

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by comme, Nov 23, 2012.

  1. comme

    comme Moderator Staff Member

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    Continuing the theme, here are some of the best players of Euro 80.

    It's obviously very different to rate players for a 3-4 game tournament rather than an entire season, so the actual ratings will be harder to gauge.

    UEFA's team of the tournament was:

    Dino Zoff
    Claudio Gentile
    Gaetano Scirea
    Karlheinz Forster
    Hans-Peter Briegel
    Marco Tardelli
    Jan Ceulemans
    Bend Schuster
    Hansi Muller
    Karl-Heniz Rummenigge
    Horst Hrubesch

    In addition I think the following players were impressive

    Wilfried Van Moer
    Klaus Allofs
    Zdenek Nehoda
    Terry McDermott


  2. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

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    This might be the same as a documentary I saw on ESPN Classic:

    Obviously you can't watch every video posted but if you have time this might be useful (you might already have seen it or something similar too though).
    I wonder whether more than just Nehoda could get an inclusion from Czechoslovakia - I remember seeing an excellent assist from one of their forwards that might be discused on the video.
    Perhaps Willy Van der Kerkhof of the Netherlands?
    comme repped this.
  3. comme

    comme Moderator Staff Member

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    That is good. I had all those documentaries taped on my V+ box but had to end up deleting some of them. Excellent to know they are available on youtube.

    I just looked at the German encyclopedia I have on the Euros as well.

    It's team of the tournament was:

    Schumacher
    Gerets
    Scirea
    Forster
    Renquin
    Van Moer
    Schuster
    Zamora
    Briegel
    Rummenigge
    Ceulemans

    Subs
    Pfaff
    Stielike
    Watson
    Asensi
    Nehoda

    So quite different from the official one.
  4. comme

    comme Moderator Staff Member

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    Big question, how many players should I be including and how many in each class as a guideline?

    For instance my rule of thumb for the seasons was

    15-20 World Class
    20-30 International Class
    50-70 National Class

    How does that change for a tournament in which there were only 14 games?

    How does it change for a 24 team World Cup?


  5. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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    This was a very poor tournament.

    Belgian coach Thijs did not expect a lot of his team but long-time journalist De Saedeleer predicted in his column: "Holland reached in 1978 with a shadow of their 1974 team the World Cup final. In the game of today everyone can win from anyone. No group of countries possesses a sheer superiority in talent any more. " Ceulemans did great though.

    European sports press saw Rummenigge (762 points) as player of the tournament, ahead of Ceulemans (548 points) and Schuster.

    It is good to note too that the original team of the tournament was different and later on amended by UEFA (don't know whether they did this years later or just a month later). The original one was this (though before the final was played).

    Arconada; Gentile, Krol, Collovati, Kaltz; Schuster, Van Moer, H. Müller; Rummenigge, Allofs, Ceulemans

    Don't know when they started to mess with the names but I'm sure this was the original one, approved by UEFA.

    Anyhow, whatever the UEFA did, this team just as information. But it was voted before the final.
  6. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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    Proof that I did not lie:

    [​IMG]

    'Modern' euro80 UEFA team has also some strange positioning; Briegel did not play in defense at euro80 but in midfield. The 'modern' UEFA team categorizes him among the defenders.

    Dietz and Kaltz were the side-backs for West-Germany at euro80.
  7. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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    You can see this in absolute and relative terms.

    Kicker, from which this is derived from (hence I'm not a big fan of these grades ;) ) seems to see it in absolute terms. During the 1980s West-Germany was able to perform when it mattered in tournaments. In between the tournaments the performance was sometimes internally criticized but when they arrived at the tournaments, they performed sufficiently well.

    And despite that, kicker was harsh in handing out World Class ratings during the 1980s, let alone consecutive World Class ratings for a a player.

    See the list I posted before.
    1960: 4 (4 both parts)
    1961: 3 (2 both parts)
    1962: 2 (2 both parts)
    1963: 2
    1964: 2 (1 both parts)
    1965: 2 (1 both parts)
    1966: 9 (5 both parts)
    1967: 3
    1968: 5 (2 both parts)
    1969: 4 (3 both parts)
    1970: 7 (5 both parts)
    1971: 4 (2 both parts)
    1972: 4 (3 both parts)
    1973: 1
    1974: 6 (2 both parts)
    1975: 5 (3 both parts)
    1976: 5 (3 both parts)
    1977: 7 (1 both parts)
    1978: 2 (1 both parts)
    1979: 5 (1 both parts)
    1980: 5 (2 both parts)
    1981: 5 (3 both parts)
    1982: 5
    1983: 4 (2 both parts)
    1984: 2 (1 both parts)
    1985: 3
    1986: 5
    1987: 0
    1988: 4
    1989: 1
    1990: 5
    1991: 0
    1992: 5 (1 both parts)
    1993: 5 (1 both parts)
    1994: 5 (1 both parts)
    1995: 2 (2 both parts)
    1996: 6 (1 both parts)
    1997: 7 (2 both parts)
    1998: 2
    1999: 2
    2000: 3 (1 both parts)
    2001: 3 (1 both parts)
    2002: 3
    2003: 0
    2004: 0
    2005: 1
    2006: 3
    2007: 1
    2008: 2 (1 both parts)
    2009: 2
    2010: 6
    2011: 4 (1 both parts)
    1st prt 2012: 1


    So the original 'ranking' seems to view it in absolute terms. 1987 has zero players ranked as World Class for example.

    An argument for viewing it in relative terms is a strong one though, because of the lack of comparability of different eras.

    I'd say World Class are definitely the three best in their position (GK; LB, RB, libero, stopper, defensive midfielder, central midfielder, AM, left-winger/left-sided midfielder, center forward, right-winger/right-sided midfielder).
    The ones between three and five are borderline World Class (but if many players made a similar performance it is possible to include more).

    Everything below place six is not World Class I'd say.
  8. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member

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    I disagree.
    Are there 3 LBs that you would label WC for the 11/12 season?
  9. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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    Both viewing in absolute and relative terms have pro and cons. Still, how do you compare Berti Vogts/Breitner with Lahm for example? Eras are difficult to compare.

    You can still mark the three best LBs as World Class but make as note 'this was a weak era', or something like it.
    The sport tennis has also had a few 'weak' number ones in the ranking, for example.

    The left-back position have always been a difficult position by the way. Left-footed players are rare (compared with right-footed ones) and left-footed left-backs are even rarer let alone the ones who stand out at the highest level.

    Left-footed playmakers have however a big neural advantage though, especially because they are rare; they meet the same amount of right-footed players as every other player but their opponents are relatively less accustomed to playing against left-footed players. Defenders are after 10000 hours (the famous 10000 hours rule) of practice better suited to combat other right-footed ones than left-footed guys.
    [hope you understand what I mean, can be a bit confusing]
  10. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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    As addition: that last paragraph also explains why you see relatively few skilled left-footed left-backs. Every left-footed guy who can kick a little bit against a ball is used in more advanced positions because of the 'neural advantage' they have. They are rare and because of their rarity they have an advantage against opponents. On offence their opponent faces a 'rare' left-footer while on defense the advantage of the left-footer falls away (because they usually face a right-footer on defense).

    They stand out against others and hence become trained in more advanced positions. At the same time, because of the smaller population size they also face less competition for their spot of other left-footed peers in comparison with their right-footed colleagues (who face heavy competition because of the bigger population).

    You also see very often that left-backs used to play as left-half or left-winger in previous years or during their youth. If I speak for the Netherlands alone: Ruud Krol was a major exception but guys as Van Tiggelen, Bogarde, Numan played in more advanced left-sided positions before they became a left-back.
    In the current game Marcelo is a good example as well on the highest level.
  11. comme

    comme Moderator Staff Member

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    I think it's sensible to go somewhere between absolutism and relativism.

    Absolutism is impossible because it is so dificult to compare across eras. However, it's silly to think that every season has just as many players in each position of a similar level.

    That's why I flex some of my guidelines.

    I'm trying to think of some sort of benchmark though for the Euros and the World Cup, varying slighly with the number of teams.

    Maybe at a rough level

    3-10 World Class
    5-10 International Class
    10-20 National Class
  12. comme

    comme Moderator Staff Member

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    Schumacher, Briegel and Rummenigge received World Class ratings from kicker for this season.

    Allofs, Dietz, Forster, Hrubesch, Kaltz, Muller and Schuster got international class.
  13. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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    OK, was just a suggestion from my side. As you know, I do not believe that every era is equally strong. On the other hand, I thought the left-back example of schwuppe is a one with major issues (for various reasons left-backs or left-wing backs belong rarely among the players who make the difference within a team).

    What I like about the WC, IC, NC categorization is that it puts players of similar caliber, or players who met a certain treshold, under the same bracket.

    In a numerical ranking (i.e. 1, 2, 3 [...] 50) it sometimes happens there is a clear number 1 but that 2 to 5 are similar and of arbitrary nature to rank. Or that you have a clear top 4 who are interchangeable but with a big gap from place five onward.

    In that respect an ordinal scale is a big advantage.
  14. comme

    comme Moderator Staff Member

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    What I'm intending to do is to provide a numerical ranking for each list, only for the World Class players. I think that gives a bit of additional information because the difference between places 1 and 10 can often be greater than between the bottom of WC and national class.

    I really could do with another category almost of all-time class or something similar.
  15. frasermc

    frasermc Take your flunky and dangle

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    I would suggest that you don't have an exact figure in mind. Seeing as each tournament will only have a small amount of players to choose from why should you limit yourself to strict amounts?

    Certain tournaments may have been blessed with an abundance of talented strikers whereas another tournament may have been strong defensively.
  16. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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    I have exactly the opposite feeling: usually the differences among the very top end are small. That is not nowadays the case though.
  17. comme

    comme Moderator Staff Member

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    How about this as an initial rating:

    Goalkeeper
    Harald Schumacher **
    Dino Zoff *
    Jean-Marie Pfaff *

    Full-back
    Manfred Kaltz **
    Eric Gerets **
    Claudio Gentile *
    Michael Renquin *

    Centre-back
    Gaetano Scirea **
    Karlheinz Forster **
    Uli Stielike *
    Ruud Krol *
    Dave Watson *
    Fulvio Collovati *

    Central midfield
    Hans-Peter Briegel **
    Jesus Zamora *
    Juan Manuel Asensi *
    Marco Tardelli *
    Terry McDermott *

    Attacking midfield
    Wilfried Van Moer ***
    Bernd Schuster ***
    Hansi Muller *

    Forwards
    Karl-Heinz Rummenigge ***
    Jan Ceulemans ***

    Strikers
    Horst Hrubesch **
    Klaus Allofs *
    Zdenek Nehoda *
  18. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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    can you post which evidence or ratings you used for that? or aren't you aware of ratings, all star teams etcetera?
    I like to see various ratings for that tournament.

    Nice attempt by the way.
  19. comme

    comme Moderator Staff Member

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    It's based on the three teams above (my two and your one) along with the Ballon D'Or for the four players getting *** ratings.
  20. msioux75

    msioux75 Member+

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    I know is off-topic. I had on project created someone related.

    But, as a rough aproximation, i would say this for a entire season:
    * 1st tier leagues produces: 5-wc; 20-ic players.
    * 2nd tier leagues produces: 3-wc; 10-ic players.
    * 3rd tier leagues produces: 1-wc; 5-ic players.
    ..... etc
  21. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member

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    Well for the next Euros there is the most accurate, but time consuming evidence available.
  22. frasermc

    frasermc Take your flunky and dangle

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    Not sure about Hrubesch on **. He admitted himself that his form wasn't great during that tournament and if he hadn't been picked for the final he would have had no grounds for complaint.

    I appreciate he obviously had a massive impact on the final so should be given a * star rating but maybe ** star is a bit of a reach...?
  23. comme

    comme Moderator Staff Member

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    What's that?
  24. comme

    comme Moderator Staff Member

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    Maybe you're right. Just over a four game tournament if you score two in the final, how much is that worth?
  25. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member

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    Watching the games. (I do not suggest that anyone would/should invest that much time)

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