The 4-2-3-1 is KING!

None here. Sorry to say my short-sided coaching experience is limited to adult play, and happily, it is not a frequent occurance.

 

My experience with small sided games are that the fields are generally small/narrow. Width cannot be exploited in the same way as 11 v 11. Is there an offsides rule? If not playing with a sweeper is usually a good call. I try to create depth and rarely play more than 2 across. I also think this encourages/forces young players to move off the ball.

 

I play a 2-4-1 with my boys. I know that probably doesn't help.

 

How do you setup the 3-3-1?

I find that the 2-4-1 works pretty well against the 3-3-1.

In the defense, my two defenders can handle the opposition's 1 striker.

In the midfield, my four midfielders out-number the opposition's 3 midfielders.

In the attack, the opposing team wastes 3 defenders watching my 1 striker.

The players in the midfield score most of the goals because we attack quickly on the counter. The four midfielders bomb into space behind the midfield and in front of the defense.

The 2-4-1 has to be used properly, and it certainly helps that I have quite a few players that are just plain better than their opponents.

The biggest strength in the 2-4-1 is the midfield, and that is also it's biggest weakness. If the midfielders get too far forward and don't play with the opposing midfield my defense will end up trying to play 3 v. 2 or 4 v. 2. If the midfielders sit too far back and don't link up with the striker, then they don't score goals.

I don't know if that helps. I just know that the 2-4-1 works well for my team.

 

Do the four midfielders play in a diamond or flat?

 

With the 331 (like a 442) you have midfielders (or backs) pushing up into the wing positions and backs pushing into the midfield position for support. So with possession its more like 133. Out of possession its 331. The striker supplies depth in defense. One defender provides depth in the attack. Hopefully you will get some movement within the lines and between the lines. But that is more than you can expect from most kids that age. I would be excited just to see the team keep a decent shape during the match. The advantage with this system is that the system is based on three man lines which makes it easy for the kids to take what they learn in 3v3 and apply it to the system as far as playing within their line. Basically its two lines of 3 with either a back providing depth (cover) or a striker providing depth (pressure) on the front end.

 

Flat.

 

Hi im new here and need some advice. My high school team currently plays a 4-2-3-1. In our first scrimmage, we dominated the other team with possession and won every thing in the midfield. This team is normally as good as us too. However, we had a tournament in which we did not win a single game out of 4 games each last 30 minutes (it was a pre season play day). It was a total collapse. There was tons of space out wide, but our wingers would not run into the space consistenly. Also, only one of our defensive mids was covering the back mid and the other one was lolligagging from off to the side. This caused our center attacking mid to feel like he had to come back into the cdm's spot to help out because the other guy wasn't doing anything. Also, the right winger, which was the side that the cdm was on, wasn't doing anything (just standing almost). Because our CAM came back, this left a big gap from the wing to wing when pushed foward and our striker was isolated. Also, because the CDM and CAM and LM were tired, they were less efficient in their passes and checking back to the defense for a pass. This caused our defense who already lacks a whole lot of control to just clear it every time almost so we could stay pushed up. SO, after all this went wrong at out tournament, I would still say the 4-2-3-1 is good, but what suggestions do you guys have for my team? Bench the lolligaggers? Change formations? I was considering a 4-1-4-1 with no gap from wing to wing and my good CDM to shield the d.

 

Also, here is our a rating of our squad by position out of 5*:
GK: *** (i have two keepers of almost equal skill, one can play field well though)
LB: ***1/2 (fast and skilled but gets reckless sometimes)
SW: ***1/2 (Senior, could be great but is lazy and underachieves)
ST: **** (Senior can play mid or striker)
RB: *** (strong, fast, can clear well but lil passing or ball controll)
LCDM: ****1/2 (Good ball control dribbling, passing, decent speed, played outside mid last year)
RCDM: ** (Senior. gets knocked off the ball, rarely gets motivated, good skill though)
LM: *** (fast, extremely conditioned, decent passes and good crosses)
RM: **1/2 (Senior. one of the fastest most skilled players but has a bad attitude, doesn't pass much in games either)
CAM: ***** (Senior. great all around, finds a way to get it done)
ST: *** (small but he as well finds a way to get it done)
SUBS: I have a jr. who is fast and has heart; little skill though, a sophomore who can pass well but is not that fast because he had to miss conditioning, a junior who is fairly strong, can clear the ball, and sometimes pass but he doesn't have a good touch, a freshman who can do most things ok but is not grown and physically in shape enough yet to see much varsity time, and i've got a soph. who is really fast, strong, sees passes and passes well, can dribble alright but he doesnt always have a good first touch for some reason? and sees a lot of varsity time. I've got others but this is who i'm considering to replace my starters who have no heart or will to win the game.

ANALYSIS: Would it be ok to switch to a 4-1-4-1 lineup with with my gk move to center d, move my stopper up to center RCM which he played last year. Should I play a flat back 4 or diamond with SW and ST? I'll keep my CDM where he is. My CAM becomes a LCM. Put my Soph. in for my Sr. RM. Take out the Sr. CDM. Also, what do i need to do at practices to improve these key things: ball control, passing & movement off the ball (esp getting my outside d to move up the flanks and getting my mid to check to), and defense maintaining its shape and containing instead of stabbing. Also, we scored 1 goal this past tourney, so my guys need to get some finishing down as well-- I tell them to lock their ankles on their insteps and land on the kicking foot but it goes in one ear and out the other.

 

The first key to getting a team to perform is good mentality. That consists of a good attitude, a good work rate, players who makes team efficient decisions and players that have a desire to win and a passionate hate against being beaten.

Without this, tactics are almost irrelevant. Players cant hide on a football pitch, no matter where you put them.

 

Hi Josh, It seems like there is a classic dilema of skill vs. heart. In the middle of the field heart wins. So if your RCM is getting knocked off the ball and is unmotivated, I'm sorry but he can't be in the engine room.
I would not start any of the players who are unmotivated. Sometimes being benched is just the kind of wake up/motivation they need. I would still play them mind you, as subsitutions are underutilized in HS. Play everyone and use fast subs. This way your whole team will stay fresh, and compete very hard for the short period they are on the field. Sometimes it is just a matter of your players being tired. Unlike higher levels of the game, conditioning is not as important because HS allows free subsitutions.

I haven't seen your team play but I also generally think using 5 midfielders in high school is a waste. Like you said since the defenders frequently just blast the ball up field, the midfield is often bypassed. It is also harder to get a good build up going through the midfield since the players are more prone to mistakes than in the pros.

Not having seen your team play I would suggest this, 4-3-1-2.Since you were getting nothing from your wingers anyway the loss of width is moot.
Let your CAM be the enganche. Move your skilled but selfish RM to striker. See if he can't utilized that speed to get behind the defense. With a great CAM and a couple bodies up top to help him, put anyone who can win a ball in midfield. They don't have to be the most skilled as long as they can compete and get the ball to your point man. And remember substitute often.

Well, good luck. Let us know what you decide to do and how it goes.

 

The four midfielder can play in a diamond as it is done by Bremen for example. I'm also always in favor of having two defensive midfielders who will ease the job for the defense.

 

That is a good idea; my RM plyed some striker last year so he's familiar with the position. I need to mull over this as I dont want to have to teach a new formation if i have to with the first game tomorrow, but I guess I should I think but what's good for the long run. Do you run a flat back four with this formation or diamond, also what are some key points to teaching my fullbacks & outside mids to get up the wings into the space (there's a lot of space on the wings in our high school matches) more often. Obviously my outside mids will go up the field, but for some reason they close in and then when the CDM or CAM plays a ball out to them it goes past them because they were too far in.

 

One up top=no good in my opinion, they get isolated all game, and even if you get the ball to the striker as a high point he has to hold it up and slow the game down. Playing 2 forwards allows you to penetrate much easier, 5 in the midfield is nice for possession but as Ray Hudson says, possession without penetration is just maturbation. But it sounds like your kids are a little tactically nieve and unmotivated, this needs to be fixed before tactics matter.

 

I would be suspicious because of the good play during the 90-minute match. Four 30-minute games in one day is grueling even for a match fit team. How were they (the heartless players) playing in the first 30 minutes? How hot was it? If you don't have subs, wing half is a really tough position to play unless you have restrictions on substitutions. Your wing half starters will be matched up constantly against rested players. (if facing a 442 you attack against the fullback and defend against the midfielder--it can get really tough facing two fit persons if the rest of your team mates are not pushing them hard) If you have restrictions on substitutions (i.e., five subs and no reentry) then you could work something out by switching up positions during the match (have wing halfs switch with with the central players--striker, holding mid or CAM--to avoid exhaustion) as a supplement to the five subs coming off the bench.

As for the CAM coming back to defend--why not defend? In high school he should be a two-way player. He will be a better player for it. Except possibly if there is only one forward (then he is really playing like a forward rather than a midfielder).

 

I don't agree. More and more teams are moving to the one, true striker formation with very, attack minded midfielders behind them.

 

Josh in reguards to your question about the flatback or diamond, I prefer the flatback. In your situation though I would probably stick with the diamond. With the limited time, it wouldn't be worth the effort to make the switch. There is nothing wrong with the sweeper/stopper diamond in HS. Very few teams are astute enough to expose the space behind the fullbacks.

I like the flatback 4, for a few reasons. I prefer a defense that is always aware of the ball and not just their marks. The four defenders will provide coverage for not just each other but also for a unmarked midfielder. The wingbacks also have more free reign to push up the pitch and provide width to an attack. Where the fullbacks in the diamond bring nothing into an attack because their man to man marking limits them.

But going from a man-to-man to a zone defense is a big adjustment. Not worth the switch.

 

Thanks to all you guys for the helpful advice. We had our first game yesterday against a team who we lost to in our tournament. We went to their home field and lost, 2-1. It was 0-0 with 15 min left, and we had the upper hand (refs calls, momentum, possession, etc). We had played with heart, possessed the ball ok, and played tactically pretty sound, but on their first goal our midfielder decided to trot behind a guy instead of running in front of him for an easy steal. This fellow then passed to their best player who we shut down all game, only to let him dribble across two or three of our defenders, throw a fake, then shoot and score.
They scored once more, we quickly answered with a good combination down the wing, a near post deflection and follow up, shortly after the ref called it. We greatly improved since the tourny, and I hope we keep with improving with our new found practice intensity. Theres still one or two seniors who have laid out of practice because they claim they have a "cold" and they missed some other team responsibilities so Ive decided that I'll still get them some good minutes in games, but Im playing my freshman, soph, and jrs (they're really hustling, it was a soph who came all the down the wing and followed the shot that scored) more so well be set for next year because these one or two SR. guys just wont work hard to get better.

 

It was cold and wet in Oregon all weekend. My daughter is on a U12 team and they played both days. The girls were miserable but they played through it. Both were great matches for spring soccer. I saw a great adjustment by the coach of my daughter's team I wanted to share. They usually play a 4-3-3 with the four being a flat four trying to catch players offsides. This particular game they were getting beat with long balls and great speed. At the end of the first half they were down 1-0. Keep in mind these girls really have not played any other formation. The coach was able to communicate to them what was happening on the field and switched the formation to a 4-1-3-2 which filled in a gap that was occurring at midfield and allowing the long ball to take place. The defensive midfielder was able to slow down any counter attacks. It worked pretty good. They tied the game in what otherwise would have surely been a loss due to speed in on the defense. I notice as the girls and boys get older there really is a strategic part of the game. Skill and speed still rule on the field but a coach can make a difference to help the players out. Anyways...it was a fun weekend despite the weather and I just wanted to share the adjustment to formation with everyone. Have a good week.

 

I agree with the article that 4-5-1 (with all of it is shapes of 4-2-3-1 or 4-1-4-1 or 4-3-2-1) is the most popular formation in modern football/soccer, however; I firmly believe that coaches needs to establish a formation or tactical solution according to their players abilities. In youth soccer 4-3-3 & 4-4-2 are the best formation to help the development of young players without making things complicated for youth players. (here I mean players of the age 12-16 I believe players younger than 12 they should only practice small sided games and futsal)

The best thing about 4-2-3-1 is the option of two defensive midfielder to cover the space and to support the team win attacking, yet many coaches make the mistakes of misplacing a players with characteristics and skills that do not match the task. We need to identify the kind of midfielder (Ball winner, hard man, box to box etc) we have to shape the tactical approach to fit their abilities and skills, maximizing the strength and potential.

 

dont mean to change the direction of this thread but I have a few formation related questions that maybe some people would be able to help out with. First, I am considering adopting a 4-3-3 formation to my girls varsity soccer team that I coach and was wondering if anyone has used this particular formation before and its effectiveness. I was talking to one very well known coach at a party and this is the formation that he recommends for girls at that level with a flat back four and a compact, inverted triangle midfield almost like a 4-1-2-3. I am afraid to introduce this come fall because the girls are use to wing half backs and some defenders only have played the diamond back D. Would you recommend this shape to my team in this scenario? what are the dangers? I have a good team this coming year and we could really do some damage given the right system, but I don't want to confuse them if its not worth it.

 

If your country has implemented a national guideline/philosophy in regards to youth development that focuses around the 4-3-3 and variations of it, then it should be a given that you use it.

With the 4-3-3, the roles are very easily defined, as compared with other out-dated formations such as the 4-4-2 and sweeper systems. It is the formation that covers to most areas of the pitch and ensures that you always have a passing option (as long as your players work hard).

The other major key is you need to analyse your squad and determine what variation of a 4-3-3 is best suited to your team. This is especially in relation to the way you set out your midfield "3". Eg...1 defensive midfielder and 2 attack, 2 holding midfielders and a AM/SS, 1 more defensive midfielder and a volante etc.

 

I agree strongly with the last 2 posters. If you are coaching youth players at the select/travel level, potentially you are coaching players that could one day play professionally or even for the national team. I know of no professional teams that play with a sweeper/stopper formation. I know of no State, Regional, or National Team on the boys or girls side that play with a sweeper/stopper system. You are doing your players a big disservice and should take a coaching course or get mentorship from someone who can teach you how to coach pressure/cover/balance; i.e the responsibilities or the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd defenders.