yea well lets agree to disagree buddy. you are way to defensive about your team La Maquina is considered the greatest team of all-time by alfredo di stefano, the greatest idol in the history of real madrid. Despite being begged by Marca to say Real Madrid of the 1950s and 1960s was better, Di Stefano said La Maquina was by far the best. La Maquina is not some myth. My grandfather used to go watch them play every week as a boy. There is video footage. They used to go to Europe and beat everyone they played. Im not so insecure about my team like you. I admit that Zico is one of the greatest of all-time. I admit that Flamengo team was dominant. I don't see why it is so hard for you to do the same. I also don't get what you have against River, flamengo has nothing to do with us at all. River is well known across the globe because we not only are the most successful team in argentina, but our players have gone abroad and become stars like Di Stefano, Sivori, Higuain, Crespo, Salas, Passarella, etc. Not to mention the fact that Francescoli is Zinedine Zidane's greatest idol as a boy and Zidane is a well known River fan. Your greatest idol Zico is forever linked with the club, but Romario played for Flu and Vasco as well. How can an idol of your club also play for your two biggest rivals more than once each? Quite frankly, your team isn't considered as great as us because your players from your cantera don't do anything abroad and you aren't any where near being the most successful club in your country. You keep going on about all these great players that you had and that played for the national team, but this only brought you 6 brazilian national championships and 1 libertadores. If your club is so big, has so much money, and has such a great cantera as you claim it does, why don't you win another libertadores and we can stop having this conversation
Because Flamengo has been mostly crap (no offense DanFla) over the past 20 years when the Libertadores started accepting more teams into the competition. They have only gotten better in the last 4 years or so. Here is Flamengo's finishing spot (in the Brasileirao) every year since 93: 8, 14, 21, 13, 5, 11, 12, 19, 24, 18, 8, 17, 15, 11, 3, 5, 1, 14 Not great even if you say Brazil has 12 big teams. The most important team in Brazil for the past 20 years has been Sao Paulo (in terms of success).
Speaking of trophies, Boca Juniors 6 Copa Libertadores vs Flamengo 1. Flamengo has no leg to stand on when compared to the big successful Argentine sides, and other than Zico, no Flamengo player has captured the attention of the world at the WC (Pele, Garrincha, Didi, Amarildo, Tostao, Rivelinho, Falcao, Socrates, Romario, Bebeto, Ronaldo, Rivaldo, Ronaldinho, Kaka all not raised at Flamengo). As for WCs, let's not talk about what ifs, I remember Brazil unable to win the WC for 24 years, until Maradona was banned...they needed the psychological lift to win it, besides the simple fact that Argentina was the better team. And again in 02, the most controversial WC ever...the loss of Spain, who were playing the best football, as well as luck in having Zidane injured for France...
There's no reason for you to talk idiotically about Argentina, because Flamengo -other than in terms of popularity- is not even one of the best clubs in Brazil, never mind comparing them to clubs in Argentina or the rest of the world. If you are talking success, you have Sao Paulo, Santos, Inter, Gremio, Cruzeiro all having done better than Flamengo historically, especially when it comes to international success. Forget about Flamengo belonging in this thread.
Agree most ly until the last bold All WC had its own controversy ... and Spain was NOT the best team there period. The best team should be able to beat Korea more than 1goal no NEED for excuses NOR depend on the ref on their side! Zidane got his OWN LUCK in WC98 final to shine while Ronaldo suffered a "weird sickness" - that was also a big controversy in last minutes that the coach started him playing!!!
You could say Flamengo was always crap, bar a short stint from 1980 to 1992 when they won their RELEVANT titles. But don't try to reason with flamengo's supporters. Also, quoting Di Stefano and making it like a scientific fact is laughable. Should we ask every football legend what they think of past teams? This discussion should be based on objective stuff like titles, number of fans, club properties, marketing value and etc.
Spain beat North Korea 2-0, only thing their goals were disallowed for no reason. They were also very unlucky to lose Raul in the eighthfinals, who was up to that point the best player of the tournament. Why would Zidane be the lucky one? He beat Ronaldo both times they met at the WC, it should be Ronaldo thanking his lucky charm for the injuries of 02.
Raul the best player? What are you on? Zidane was lucky Ronaldo had that seizure, you can't deny it. He was the best forward at the time. Having said that, I think France would have won anyway. Are you spanish?
No, it's a fair assessment from what I remember of that WC...Raul was playing fantastic along with Morientes up front for Spain, they strolled through their group, dominated Ireland but Hierro's stupid foul sent the match to overtime, where Raul came off injured. They still outplayed North Korea and both their goals were legit, I think they would have beat Germany to set up a great final with Brazil...
If I'm not mistaken, Raul scored only 3 goals in that WC. I don't know how his performance was better than Ronaldo, Rivaldo, Khan, Ballack... It's Spain's fault they didn't advance on the PKs anyway.
It;s a very fair statement mate. At WC2oo2 the TOP5 (ATTACKERS only) should (and were) be: Ronaldo (8Go), Rivaldo (5go+2as), Ballack (3go+4as), Ronaldinho (2go+3as) and Hassan Sas(2go+3as). I do NOT see how Raul coul make to top10 best attacker in that WC, as he was still behind Klose, Tomasson, Vieri, Pauleta, and Wilmost I had said many times, people were either discriminated (against low team) or biased toward the big names (Italy and Spain) to bash out the Korea performance. They were surely a MINNOW team but they fought with spirits to win (like the Germany) . Look at the Gemrany (finalist) were also having a hard time just to beat them 1goal to advance! I am sure if Brazil were to face that same S.Korea, tehy would beat them more than 2 goals in difference, so what the heck with the ref being OFF??? Lastly, Spain (like you mentioned) were only blame by themselves for they did NOT KNOW how to kick the ball from just 12yards away .... GOSH ...
Raul only played in four matches though, he missed the OT against Ireland and the entire match against South Korea. I am not a Raul fan, I think the Madridistas overrate him, but that WC was poor and he was one of the few star players who showed up to play with quality. Spain played the best soccer that tournament, that's why it bothered so many people around the world that they got eliminated by the ref's decision. Oh and Germany did face the same SK team and did NOT win by two goals (which Spain did in reality).
This may sound harsh, but you are an ignorant fool. No Argentinean team was better than Flamengo 80s? Many in South America regard the la Maquina River team bigger than even the 60s Santos team, let alone the Flamengo team. The San Lorenzo team of the 40s, Independiente of late 30, early 40s with Sastre, Erico and de la Mata, the River team of mid 70s, Huracan of early 70s...all are as relevant historically as the 80s Flamengo team. It was a historical team, led by the great Zico himself...but I just can't take your claim seriously because your understanding of Argentinean footabll is zilch. When making comparisons, make sure you know enough about both sides. Don't just come from one viewpoint and rub your ignorant opinions around. Also, Brazil's international success is undeniable. But you are forgetting the first half of 20th century, when Argentina, alongside Uruguay, were much better than Brazil. When citing WC records, bring up Copa America records as well.
Bochini >> Alonso. No doubt about it. We are talking about arguably the best pure enganche produced by Argentina ever. Harsh on Valencia. He was a different player from Bochini-Alonso type. He was a support striker/winger-type skillful little fella. He did his job well.
According to you logic Independiente is bigger than São Paulo, Santos, Flamengo and Palmeiras all together because Independiente has more Libertadores? Boca and River had theirs place on South America competitions in many cases because AFA wanted, not because of their merits...You cant compare the numbers of Libertadores since it is easier to any Argentinian big team to play this competitions, because there are 12 big teams in Brasil and 4 in Argentina... For your Argentinian friend. Flamengo has 6 National titles, and is the team with most titles...And im sorry to disapoint you but River is not considered the most important Argentinian club, for foreigners, at least in Brasil. Bebeto started in Flamengo...And you said that Socrates captured world attention playing the WC, let me introduce some players that you may don't know, but are most important to world soccer than most that you pointed as River players...Zico, Junior, Leandro, Bebeto, Zizinho and etc etc etc.
Well after i read here that River team was better than Santos of Pele and many middle argentinian team are comparable with Flamengo 80s of Zico and many others players that were the best on their positions of Brasil history all the times, i will stop discuss here because is a nonsense discussion...argentinians should be a little more humble about theirs soccer. The doubt that i have is: Where were all this players of "fantastics" argentinians teams comparable with Santos 60s and Flamengo 80s that they were just "fantastic" on their clubs and than forget how to play soccer playing for Argentina in WCs... Are you serious about Copa America? Do you care about this? well Copa America is so important that if you ask to any Brazilian how many titles Brasil have, none brazilian will know...
Socrates was a product of Botafogo/SP and Corinthians. He played for Flamengo a total of 20 times and scored 5 goals. Not sure what you are boasting about there.
Yes, Flamengo mystique is greater than River and Flamengo is better known globally. Yes Flamengo has best youth system. Famous phrase in Brasil "Craque o Flamengo faz em casa" plz use the google translator. As i said Flamengo is the team with most selected player for Brasil team in all the times... Only on the last WC there were 4, Julio Cesar, Juan, Gilberto and Felipe Melo. I can tell you a few players that wear Flamengo jersey...Zico, Leonidas, Zizinho, Zagallo, Carlos Alberto Torres, Gerson, Romario, Bebeto, Domingos da Guia, Evaristo, Vavá, Zinho, Adriano, Jair da Rosa Pinto, Leandro, Nunes, Junior, Andrade, Raul, Renato Gaucho, Paulo Cesar Caju, Leonardo, Claudio Adão, Dida, Claudio Coutinho, Luxemburgo, Carpegiani, Dario Pereyra, Dada Maravilha, Friedenreich, Jorginho, Rondinelli, Aldair and etc...i didnt mention others players as Garrincha, Casagrande, Socrates and others that played just one season.
He mention Socrates as a great brazilian player on WC...Socrates played just one season for Flamengo. I forget to mention that Amarildo also started in Flamengo.
I get it. Brazilians don't care about Copa America, so its not important...AFA helped Argentinean teams win the Copa Libertadores titles.
Tell me why Boca and River played Copa Sul-Americana in 2007,08,09? Answer: AFA invitation. If a one-side movement like that happens in Brasil, i have no doubt that the others big teams would broke relations with CBF...
Point by point: Independiente is not bigger than all of them combined, but it's a greater club than any of those teams by themselves. There are not 12 big teams in Brazil, at least not big at the world stage. Anyways your point would only make sense if all Brazilian clubs combined had more international titles than Argentinians, but we all know that's not the case. Socrates is not associated with Flamengo, only played one year there at the end of his career, when he was no longer part of the Selecao. Bebeto is harldy a superstar, just a very good squad player at WC 94, then he sucked at WC 98. River Plate has DiStefano, Moreno, Sivori, Francescoli, Pasarella, Fillol, Caniggia, and a bunch of other playes who made international impact. The first two are greater than any Flamengo player, including your beloved Zico.
this danfla is a clown. go watch a fellow brazilians (soccerscout) blog on this site. He went around the USA vs. Brazil game asking people if they could name brazilian teams and most people could not name any, those that did didn't know flamengo. i live in washington dc. i go to my local soccer shop and there are river jerseys there. i have never seen a flamengo jersey. i have never seen a jersey of any brazilian team have you ever been to the nou camp? or the bernabeu? i have, and i saw people where river jerseys both times. i have the pictures, pm if you doubt it DanFla you have an excuse for everything. brazilian teams didn't care about the copa libertadores in the 60s, brazil doesn't care about the copa america... you keep talking about BIG TEAMS. you know what? obviously brazil would have bigger teams than argentina, you have almost 200 million people, in argentina we have 40 million. the bottom line is, you rant about how much money the brazilian league has, yet your club, the most popular in brazil, has 1 libertadores. end of story. youre on the level of once caldas. i don't care about brazil's national team or how many flamengo players played for it. you club is obviously not that important because Romario, one of your idols, also played for Flu and Vasco. What nonsense. This is like if Francescoli had played for Boca and Independiente. As i said before DanFla, if your club is as big as you say, use all your money and win another libertadores Santos is trying to buy a libertadores and theyre last in their group with 2 points the best player in the brazilian league Dario Conca was an absolute failure at River and Central. I am not making this up. It is a fact. no matter what you say, River has more libertadores than you. Flamengo is a big team because it is in rio. How many top players from abroad have gone to play at fla? enzo francescoli who beat brazil in 2 copa america finals (i know brazil didn't care) played for river plate marcelo salas who won titles at lazio and juventus played for river plate they both also went to europe to make millions, but returned to River because of their love of the club at the moment, we had 2 players called up to play for Uruguay (JM Diaz) and Paraguay (Roman) and they both turned it down so they could stay with River. Meanwhile, the best foreigner Flamengo has is Dario Botinelli, another who failed in Argentina
Because every previous CONMEBOL attempt at having a secondary cup to compliment Copa Libertadores -as they have in Europe to compliment Champion's league- had failed. CONMEBOL wanted desperately to have Copa Sudamericana succeed. For that reason, they figured that the only way Sudamericana would succeed would be to force the world's greatest team play in it, by giving them a guaranteed spot. And to balance it out, they also gave River a guaranteed spot. But seriously, Boca does not belong in a second tier tournament like Sudamericana. They won it twice only because they were forced to be in it, but it's no big deal. Now that the tournament has survived, Boca doesn't need to be in it anymore. Boca needs to get back to Libertadores, where they belong. It's not the same tournament without Boca.