This video is for the Sao Paulo supporter that posted on this topic. You cant measure the size of a soccer team only with titles, when São Paulo or any brazilian team have the number of soccer and others sports icons on his history as Flamengo has, São Paulo would be able to say that has the same size as Flamengo. This video show just a few of great world classes soccer players and others athletes from differents sports, that are part of Flamengo history. Only the best of the best of brazilians and world sports are on this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-gymZaWqXc
The players that have played for a club is an important benchmark, just not the most important as you claim. Here is how the criteria should be in order of weight: International trophies League titles Mystique Cantera Players at their prime Ratings According to this criteria, ranked in the above order, Flamengo is not an elite club, but teams like Penarol, Ajax, Benfica are.
what do you mean by ratings? like how many people watch on TV? Players in their prime is important. For example, Maradona played 1 year at Boca and won 1 title. His time at Boca should be considered nothing more than that of Kempes at River. We River fans are proud that a goleador like Kempes wore our shirt and helped us win the Nacional in 1981 and scored important goals against Boca and Ferro, but we would never consider him an idolo like Maradona is at Boca. His best year were in Europe and Argentinos, his stay at Boca was too short (and don't tell me maradona was a boca fan, its well known he was a fan of el rojo as a kid) just like Kempes' best years were in Valencia and Central and with the Seleccion Argentina
By ratings I mean both the box office and TV factor. I think the difference between Maradona at Boca Jrs and Kempes at River Plate is that Diego was still a "starlet", just making his mark in the footballing world, and part of his growth meant being a champion with Boca. Kempes was on his way down when he joined River, incidentally, I think El Matador finished his career with a whimper after being on top for some time, even worse than Ronaldinho to find a modern equivalent. I didn't know Diego had been an Independiente fan while growing up, must have been special to him to have Bochini on the 86 squad.
Well, Bochini is one of Diego's 3 idols that he always talks about (others being Houseman and Rivelino). Plus, we are talking about Diego here. As good as Kempes was, Diego was in another level. Therefore, Diego playing for Boca was bigger than Kempes for River so to say. Diego's "prime" was from 1978 to about 1987 or 1988. His Argentinos and Boca days are still the best of Diego I have seen, better than that of Napoli or of the national team.
Kempes is very underrated. I would also not say he was "on his way down" when he came to River. He had just won the UEFA Cup Winners CUp and UEFA Super Cup the year before and was still one of the pillars of the national team. The strength of Argentina Futbol at the time just meant that River was able to buy a player of Kempes's ability, something that couldn't happen today. River's team that won the 1981 Nacional beating Ferro in the final had Passarella, Filliol, Alonso, JJ Lopez, Kempes, Merlo, Gallego, Ramon Diaz, a team managed by Di Stefano
Not sure if I got all of them, but it's pretty incredible that 5 of those players went on to manage River at some point.
Yea and also Filliol is our assistant coach right now Pasarella has been a player, coach, and now he is our President. Is there anyone like that in Europe?
no he didn't. He spends most of his time these days sitting at home and criticizing the team when he has time However, Alonso is the second greatest idolo in our history, yet most non-Argentine people don't know who he is (100% the fault of Menotti for not playing him) my grandfather grew up watching la maquina and he rates alonso up there with those greats. its difficult to explain the love affair river fans had with alonso, it was untouchable. i don't fully grasp it myself as i wasnt alive, but i gather it was similar to the love of Francescoli which is something unforgettable
hahahaah ok man, you should study a bit about soccer an than come back to discuss here. Let me tell you something, in all this criterias Flamengo >>>> River Plate....
That was a brilliant team. Never liked Merlo though. Similar dislike I had for both Enriques despite them playing for River. Kempes is indeed underrated, but not as much compared to another guy you have in there: Ramon Diaz. A dcikhead, but a brilliant footballer. The "philosopher" Valdano would have come nowhere near the national team had Diego-Ramon relations stayed sober. Beto Alonso's legend is as big as Francescoli's, if not bigger. Though my dad says that Ermindo Onega was a better player (fcuker's performance in 66 WC was brilliant)...that whole lot was unlucky though..perennial silver medal winners....60s was dire, despite having Onega, Artime, Mas, Menendez, Cubilla cia.
So Flamengo's "mystique" is greater than River's? Who is better known globally? Flamengo has best youth system? Do you know the players that River has produced? And finally, Flamengo's players have been historically better than River's? Forget Francescoli, or Burro Ortega or Beto Alonso. Just give me the la Maquina duo of Moreno-Pedernera with Sivori and Di Stefano, and it beats any legendary club team ever assembled.
Maradona played 3 years at Boca. The last two he was a bit past his prime, but it's still important in terms of his significance to the fans that he came back to Boca, and his heart was always with Boca. And besides, he is Maradona. I would compare Kempes' time at River more to Batistuta's time at Boca, in which he showcased his great talent, scored important goals, and is remembered fondly, but is not considered one of the clubs main idols.
I remember Alonso from my childhood, and he was indeed a great player. Very creative and also a strong finisher for a playmaker. He once scored a goal just like the one Pele missed at the 70 WC against Uruguay. Having said that, lets not get carried away. Your comment about Menotti is unfair. After all, Menotti did win the World Cup with Kempes as his number 10. And actually back in 78 many argued that both Bochini and the young Maradona should have made the team ahead of Alonso. If Alonso is not better known outside Argentina he only has himself to blame. He got his chance to play in Europe, and for whatever reason was not able to succeed in showcasing his great talent at Marseille, and had to return to River. Now Rojitas, on the other hand...
i know nothing about el Beto's time in France. I do know that in the little he got to play in Argentina 1978, he was awesome. He set up Luque's winner against Hungary in the group game (the River connection ) But yea, Menotti has been a hate character at River for not letting Alonso play the Final. When he coached us he still got abuse for that. I also remember something about an orange ball and beto scoring against el loco gatti, but you probably remember that My dad is around your age, so he says similar things, although Beto is of course his greatest idol along with Passarella, though i assume you guys have different taste in that regard
I recognize that Alonso was a great player, but do you really think he would have done more than Kempes in 78? And all Argentines -except maybe hard-core River fans- would rank Bochini ahead of Alonso. If anybody should be pissed about not playing in 78, it's Bochini. In fact, many claim that it was the military who pressured Menotti to call Alonso, and that's why Menotti wasn't willing to play him much. But he did have that nice assist against Hungary, I'll give you that. And I do remember the game with the orange ball, of course. I was a kid and a big fan of Gatti, so it's not a good memory for me. But ask your old man about Rojitas stealing Amadeo's lucky cap.
Alonso was very good, but I have to agree Bochini was a greater player...more successful and a leader on the pitch. To me though, both Bochini and Maradona should have made the 78 squad ahead of Valencia, who in my opinion did very little to be on the squad.
thats the point i'm making, i never would say Kempes shouldn't have played, Kempes and Alonso played together in 1981 and did more than well, i see no reason why they couldn't have played together in the world cup its actually an interesting story as to why Argentina's team may not have been the best possible: when Menotti was going to take Argentina on a tour of Europe, he called 5 players from River- JJ Lopez, Filliol, Passarella, Luque, and Alonso. But only 2 decided to go, Passarella and Luque. JJ Lopez had been the choice 8 of the team, Alonso the 10, and Filliol the goalie in a friendly against Spain, but Menotti got pissed so he dropped those 3 from the team. In their place, Menotti called Ardiles for JJ, Loco Gatti for Filliol, and i'm not sure who came in for Alonso. Under pressure from media and fans he recalls Alonso, who barely played, and Filliol who saved his a$$ in the Final. JJ Lopez wasn't as lucky and Ardiles stayed Bochini also missed this European tour with Argentina to stay with Independiente and play the libertadores, menotti wouldn't forgive him either, and he didn't go and thats when valencia got his chance
yeah im sure that be the team with most selected players to the most famous and 5 times world champion national team, Brasil, in all the times, must be less than the players that River provided to Argentina, 2 times world champion...Flamengo 80s was better than any River team...was the base of Brasil 82, considered for many brazilians the best brazilian team of all the times better than Brasil 70s... Let me tell you something, you should not forget when you are comparing Brazilians teams and players to Argentinians teams and players, we are talking about a country with 5 world titles 19 WC participations and 7 finals, against Argentina with 2 titles and both with at least weird circumstances, as la Mano of Dios and Argentina 6x0 Peru...
still la Maquina was a very good team by all acounts, has a Flamengo team been rated that highly worldwide?
i dont understand the necessity of people to worldwide recognition. Why people around the world should recognise something that they didn't watch? Flamengo 80s, Santos 60s and Botafogo 50-60s were the 3 best teams in Brasil history, this should be enough to end any discussion, but people continue to overestimate what they know, and underestimate what they don't care.