The 100 Greatest X of All Time Discussion Thread

This is the ultimate proof that you don't even care about other peoples post and stick to your guns even if it's prestented that what you say is blatantly wrong.

Post #2069 by Puck


It's even the first goal shown.

 

OK my bad on that one .. as I was writing and missed it ! but that did not change my saying: Maradona FK = Platini (freekick only but not shooting ) so please moving on to the next ,,,

 

This gets the job done



Has no sound but images are clear enough & at right speed. I included a few goals scored in Coppa Italia and European Cup too.

 

You can also see that Platini is very well capable of scoring for long range @ 0:35, 2:15.

 

...and at the end of the day their gpg ratio is similar. If Platini was inferior in the shooting department as you imply, it means he was automatically better somewhere else (like shooting instinct or whatever you call it) otherwise his gpg would have been logically lower.

You still conveniently ignore that during the first 2/3 of his carreer he played with teams that were not that great or even pretty average, and that he was great nevertheless.

Juve had to wait 1995 to win another scudetto.
Saint-Etienne started his long and painful decline in 1982, coinciding with Platini leaving the club.
Nancy did nothing remarkable after Platini's years.
France was crap before Platini joined the team and crap after he left.
All these are coincidences ?

Did you read my previous post ?
Giresse said that Platini did things that ourselves (ie the other members of the team) were simply unable to do.
In his autobiography Fernandez wrote that he was lucky to play with the best player in the world and that he thought he was one of the 5 greatest players ever.
In so foot website, when asked about how good was Platini, Rocheteau simply said : "simply the best".
Maxime Bossis said that Platini was among the very best players of the history alongside Cruyff, Maradona and Messi.
I could go on...

No, for a very simple reason : Henry was an all-round forward whereas Nistelroy was not. I can't see the point.

I've already answered to that several times : Platini is not a Messi or C Ronaldo kind of player because his goal stats were great regardless the situation.

 

A quick look at their respective ratio with Juve and national team suggest that Platini was a more prolific free-kick taker. I don't know how many free-kicks Maradona scored with Argentinos Junior and Boca though.

 

Interestingly, RoyoftheRovers argued a while ago that RvN was "the complete number 9".

Similarity between both is that they under-performed for NT. That is also part of the reason why RvN never got respect in his own country

And same ratio before and after 1982 world cup.

 

I also have the goals and assist ratio of Maradona in European competitions complete but not for Platini. For Platini I miss one tie for St Etienne against Finnish team Kupio (7:0 win at home, 0:7 win away - 2 goals). Probably he has apart from those two goals a few more assists in that tie too.

Anyhow, this is for Maradona:

Maradona (wing-forward) for Barcelona in Europe: 7 matches, 8 goals (1 PK goal), 5 assists

1982/1983: 4 games, 5 goals, 4 assists
1983/1984: 3 games, 3 goals (1PK), 1 assist

Show Spoiler Hide Spoiler

Maradona 1982/1983

vs Apallon Limassol (8:0 win, 1:1 draw) [note: cup winner of Cyprus]

First leg: 3 goals (1 FK goal), 1 assist
Second leg: did not play

vs Red Star Belgrade (2:4 win, 2:0 win)

First leg: 2 goals, 1 assist
Second leg: 2 assists

vs Austria Wien (0:0 draw, 1:1 draw at home)

First leg: did not play
Second leg: 0 goals [did play relatively well though]


Maradona 1983/1984

vs Magdeburg (1:5 win, 2:0 win)

First leg: 3 goals (1PK goal), 1 assist
Second leg: did not play

vs NEC (2:3 win, 2:0 win)

First leg: did not play
Second leg: did not play

vs Manchester United (2:0 win, 3:0 loss)

First leg: 0 goals
Second leg: 0 goals

Maradona (attacking midfielder & second striker) for Napoli in Europe: 25 games, 5 goals (3 PK goals), 10 assists [wide criteria]

1986/1987: 2 games, 0 goals, 0 assists
1987/1988: 2 games, 0 goals, 0 assists
1988/1989: 12 games, 3 goals (3PK), 9 assists
1989/1990: 5 games, 0 goals, 1 assist
1990/1991: 4 games, 2 goals, 0 assists

Show Spoiler Hide Spoiler

Maradona 1986/1987

vs Toulouse (1:0 win, 0:1 loss)

First leg: 0 goals
Second leg: 0 goals [missed fifth PK in shoot-out]


Maradona 1987/1988

vs Real Madrid (2:0 loss, 1:1 draw)

First leg: 0 goals
Second leg: 0 goals


Maradona 1988/1989

vs PAOK (1:0 win, 1:1 draw)

First leg: 1 goal (PK)
Second leg: 1 assist

vs Leipzig (1:1 draw, 2:0 win)

First leg: 0 goals
Second leg: 1 assist

vs Bordeaux (0:1 win, 0:0 draw)

First leg: 0 goals
Second leg: 0 goals

vs Juventus (2:0 loss, 3:0 win)

First leg: 0 goals
Second leg: 1 goal (PK)

vs Bayern Munich (2:0 win, 2:2 draw)

First leg: 2 assists [note: Careca is assisted but does hardest part of the job, I give it benefit of doubt]
Second leg: 2 assists

vs Stuttgart (2:1 win, 3:3 draw)

First leg: 1 goal (PK), 1 assist
Second leg: 2 assists


Maradona 1989/1990

vs Sporting Lisbon (0:0 draw, 0:0 draw)

First leg: 0 goals
Second leg: 0 goals

vs Wettingen (0:0 draw, 2:1 win)

First leg: 0 goals
Second leg: did not play

vs Werder Bremen (2:3 loss, 5:1 loss)

First leg: 1 assist
Second leg: 0 goals


Maradona 1990/1991

vs Ujpest Dosza (3:0 win, 0:2 win)

First leg: 2 goals
Second leg: 0 goals

vs Spartak Moscow (0:0 draw, 0:0 draw)

First leg: 0 goals
Second leg: 0 goals

Total summarized stat: 32 games, 13 goals (4 PK), 15 assists

 

Do you consider Henry as a number 9 ? Personally, I see him more as an all-round forward whose job was to score goals (of course) but also to create chances for his team-mates. He was excellent at setting up goals for his team-mates for example, as suggested by his high assist ratio for instance. Correct me if I'm wrong but I can't see RvN exactly that way.

 

Show Spoiler Hide Spoiler

That is exactly part of the reason why he wasn't popular. RvN was a fair bit better in involving his team-mates at Real Madrid though.
RvN was good in creating chances for himself, see the Fulham goal among others but at ManUnited his creativity was limited. Did a fair bit better at Real Madrid as said.

Generally, he did not play well for the national team. Kluivert, although a controversial person, was far more popular because in his case it was the other way around: he played generally way better for national team as for his club, on top of that he was technically a great player. That's why he is all-time topscorer of the national team, with a great ratio (if you compare it with other legendary Dutch striker).

Both are exactly the same age and born on the same day, funnily.

 

All Napoli assists are on youtube as well

Show Spoiler Hide Spoiler

[right at beginning]


[right at beginning]


[at 1:10 and 2:15]


[at 0:25 and 1:04]


[at 3:02]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZBVc5XncuM&feature=plcp
[at 2:05 and 2:45]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2mh3LTfpDk
[at 1:13]

Not all Barcelona assists are on youtube. This one is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czb_xyOI3n0
[assist at 2:00]

Because James is after all/thanks to/despite of everything[make a choice you like] a friendly person.

 

That original interview appeared in Platini his Football Greatest episode.

 

Anyhow, I miss one tie but this are the stats for St Etienne and Juventus

1979/1980: 7 matches, 5 goals (1 PK), 2 assists
1980/1981: 7 games, 4 goals, 1 assist
1981/1982: 2 games, 0 goals, 0 assists

Show Spoiler Hide Spoiler

1979/1980

1 vs Widzew Lodz (home), 1 assist vs PSV (home)

1980/1981

1 assist vs Hamburg (away)

[no assist-info about matches against Kuopia in 1980/1981 season – two times a 7:0 win with two goals scored by him]

All-time topscorers in European competitions for ASSE:
Johnny Rep - 11 goals
Hervé Revelli - 10 goals
Michel Platini - 9 goals
Jean-Michel Larqué - 7 goals

Platini played with #6 and #10 on the back of his shirt and yes, he played as defensive orientated midfielder in some of those games.

1982/1983: 9 matches, 5 goals (1 PK), 4 assists
1983/1984: 8 matches, 2 goals, 3 assists
1984/1985: 9 matches, 7 goals (3 PK), 3 assists
1985/1986: 6 matches, 3 goals (1 PK), 1 assist
1986/1987: 4 matches, 2 goals, 4 assists

Show Spoiler Hide Spoiler

1982/1983:
1 assist vs Hidovre (away), 1 assist vs Standard Liege (home), 1 assist vs Aston Villa (away), 1 assist vs Widzew Lodz (away)

1983/1984:
1 assist vs Haka (away), 1 assist vs ManUnited (home), 1 assist vs Porto (neutral)

1984/1985:
1 assist vs Grasshoppers (away), 2 assists vs Bordeaux (home)

1985/1986:
1 assist Jeunesse Esch (home)

1986/1987
3 assists Valur (home), 1 assist (away)

[note: had also many pre-assists to the wide players such as Boniek and Cabrini, also Paulo Rossi occasionaly tended to drift wide. On counter-attack and transition the top class wide players played a crucial role in the Juventus system, just as dynamic midfielders as Tardelli to join attack when Rossi was drifted wide]

Position on all-time topscorer list in European games
1. Del Piero 49 goals
2. Trezeguet 30 goals
3. Bettega 27 goals
4. Anastasi & Baggio 22 goals
6. Inzaghi 20 goals
7. Platini & Ravanelli 19 goals [with 5 PK goals though]
9. Rossi 13 goals [with 0 PK goals though]
[..]
11. Laudrup 11 goals
14. Cabrini 10 goals
21. Tardelli 8 goals
24. Boniek 7 goals

http://www.rsssf.com/players/platini-in-ec.html

Total statistical summary: 52 games, 28 goals (6 PK goals), 18 assists
[but I miss those two 7:0 routs (14:0 aggregate score) against Finnish club Kuopio]

[of course assists or never 100% precise, I'd say it is in the 17-19 range, Maradona his assist number is in the 14-15 range I think]

 

Statistics say not everything and it were different players, with as compounding factor that they changed within their careers too but the goals+assist ratio of the following players is more or less comparable and similar unless you start to split hairs.

Cruijff: 87 games, 36 goals (1 PK goal), ~33 assists
Platini: 52 games, 28 goals (6 PK goals), ~18 assists
Maradona: 32 games, 13 goals (4 PK goals), ~15 assists
[but of Platini I miss details of one tie]

Statistics say not everything but do help however in structuring thoughts and making plausible or implausible suggestive or outright baseless claims (like: "he was not the same scoring threat").

 

You and Babaoroum had NOT YET answered me about how Messi and CR7 looked (much) better in stats than Platini, Maradona, and Cruijff? Do you want Bada Bing to list out goals + assists side by side against them?

The great team made their stats just better than than their already greatness - SAME with Platini. His team mates made him "on part" with Maradona/Cruijff in stats (scoring) but NOT truely becuase of his "shooting skills"!
- I said in dead ball, Platini shooting is easily in TOP10 if not TOP5
- however in live ball he won;t make even TOP25 if not much lower (here Maradona was still comfortable in TOP10

 

I am sure you read well his saying since you wrote them in your blog, and even they were made into a poet in France at time:
It MEANT despite of Platini was #1 (according to Ballon Dor) they meant he was just part of the "great MF machine" ever assembled in France since last Barcail70 (with 4,5 playmakers in midfield)

- Didi, Zagalo, N Santos Rivelino, Tostao ... had never said anything like "Pele could not play like me" - as they know Pele could even do more and they NEEDED him. Even he only played 1.5games in 62, everyone said PELE WON 3 WCs for Brazil!

- None of Valdano Burugacha nor Cannigia or Batistuta would dare saying :"Maradona can not play like me!" - as they know he could do much better. He was "heart and soul" of Argentina 82-94...

- Extend to Cruijff in his "total football" team with Holland. Neither Resenbrink, Neesken, Hanegem would say Cruijff can not play like me! Cruijff was like a "coach on pitch" and they played to what he directed them to.

- Or Rivaldo, Ronaldinho Kaka, Robinho even considered Ronaldo as their "idol" ... right on the same team! That's the DIFFERENCE

 

James, did you bother to read my previous post about what Platini's former team-mates said about him, seriously ?

 

Because both -as great as they are- benefit from hugely favorable circomstances Cruyff, Maradona and Platini never had. Now put them in the Italian 80's league and I bet their stats will significantly drop, just like their gpg drop when they play for their NT (it is no longer true in Messi's case however).

I've already answered to this a hundred of times : if that was true, his stats would have been lower before 1982 when he played with lesser teams. In fact it was quite the opposite : his stats were better when playing with average and not-so-great teams and declined a bit with Juve.

 

you again 1- not consider the context but strictly goals in number, 2- compare orange to apple.

It was not like Playtini playingfor Napoli nor Unidese in same SERIEA league but Ligue 1,,, gosh in fact, his 0.5GPG in serieA was much better (weighed) than his 0.57GPG in ligue 1 per se

 

Of course he played in a dominant team that also got favors from referees (Turone's goal and so on) and of course everything fell in his way at Juventus but the cold facts suggest that he reached already a high level before he went to Juventus:

9 goals (1PK) in 16 games for ASSE in Europe - field goal ratio of 0.50
19 goals (5PK) in 36 games for Juventus in Europe - field goal ratio of 0.38

Of course the UEFA Cup (during period at ASSE) was incomparable with the Cup Winners Cup and European Cup and you can think of other differences as well but a ratio of 0.50 for a midfielder that wore #6 and #10 alike is very good.

You see the same with France national team. Before he went to Italy he played 38 games for the national team and scored 21 goals - 0.55 (but with many free kick goals though)

After 1982WC he played a further 34 games and scored 20 goals - 0.58 (with less free kicks but all three PK goals were scored in this period)

I agree with you that you can't say with certainty that his level in France was higher solely because he had higher GPG. He had a higher GPG but never a topscorer title while in Italy he became topscorer on three consecutive occasions.
Average goals per game in French league was around 3.00 in some seasons with a significant drop from 1980 onwards when it gradually dropped from 3.00 to 2.58 (average of 2.88 over all 7 seasons he played in French first division).

Other comparison:
Juventus scored between 1982 and 1987 1.59 goals on average. Platini had a ratio of 0.46 over those five seasons.

Nancy scored between 1975 and 1979 1.88 goals on average. Platini had a ratio of 0.62 over those four seasons.

ASSE scored between 1979 and 1982 1.89 goals on average. Platini had a ratio of 0.56 over those three seasons.

 

This is obviously not true. Maradona scored from harder angles his free kicks perhaps just as he scored more spectacular goals. He often opted for the 'Hollywood' option in his game and had success with it.

But in both the Serie A and national team videos you can see that Platini reached a higher ratio.

13 free kicks in 147 Italian league games is better as 14 free kick goals in 188 league games.

More than 10 free kick goals in 72 national team games is better as 5 free kick goals in 91 games.

Please start to watch those videos.

It is a possibility that Platini missed more free kick attempts as well (like C. Ronaldo) but that seems unlikely to me (also remember the 'Pelé and Maradona are most fouled players in history' prose you often express; if that is true it also means someone naturally receives more free kick attempts).

I also think though (and I say this to please you) that Zico was far ahead of those two in terms of free kick taking. Zico scored at least 13 free kick goals for his national team and had in any event a way better ratio at Serie A - see other thread. On top of that, it is estimated that of his 500+ career goals more than 90 are free kicks.

 

First bold, FK, I always rated Platini high (TOP3) in this category with Zico as obvious #1.
But Maradona is also TOP5 maybe number 4or 5 just behind pLatini or same.

second bold: You for got a BIG FACT: FIFA never had a certain rule on player making fouls in Pele until Maradona time. Manymany had excaped free with their foulings (ref just waived on ) IF pele and Maradona are to play NOW, yes they will explode the game since the games are well prepared to protect player especially since late 90's.

3rd bold: same as my first line:
IMO of best Freekickers: Zico >Mihailovic >= Platini >=Maradona as TOP3,4.
5th place are wide open for Didi, Pele, Juninho, or so ...

 

This is both wrong and correct.

This claim is often substantiated by the fact that Maradona was the most fouled player in 1986 and 1990 World Cup. Probably also 1982 World Cup (but I've read contradictory evidence in that respect). What I do know with certainty is that he drew 53 fouls in 1986, 53 fouls in 1990 (record amount of registered fouls in a world cup) and in the Italy match alone in 1982 he drew 23 fouls.

The 1974, 1978 and 1990 World Cups are the three World Cups since 1966 with the highest average of registered fouls.

However, 'most fouled' means in this respect that the referees whistled for a foul. In relation to the part in bold it is relevant to keep that in mind - it are registered fouls. Maybe, with emphasis on maybe, some others drew the same amount of violence without the same 'protection' or they were simply better in avoiding contact.

In any event, it is plausible that Maradona (and Platini, Zico as well....) received many free kicks (which was my point in the context of FK-accuracy) so your rebuttal 'but the defenders escaped free' is partially true but also partially wrong.