The 100 Greatest X of All Time Discussion Thread

I thought he was a brilliant keeper, but naturally being number 2 to Buffon for so long didn't help him.

I must say his performances at Euro 2000 were fantastic, and there are not many keepers on the list that had a tournament like that.

Of course a large slice of greatness comes down to luck. Toldo was unlucky that he came along at the same time as Buffon. If he had been English for instance, he might easily have been the number 1 for years and got into the list.

Neville Southall was unlucky for instance as well that he was Welsh and never got to go to a major tournament. Southall was the best shot stopper I have ever seen. His reflexes were phenomenal and for a big lad he had amazing agility. At the same time he was lucky he wasn't English, or else he and Shilton would have fought out the mid-late 80s the way that Shilton and Clemence did in the 70s and early 80s.

Clemence is another one who was unfortunate. Had it not been for Shilton he might well have won 100 caps. His record at club level is phenomenal, so if Shilton hadn't been there he'd possibly have moved up into the top 10 or 20.

So like I say, luck plays a big part in it all.

 

So I put Chilvert somewhere aroung 60th. The IFFHS put him 6th. Who got it right, because there was some serious discrepancy there.

My rationale was that they had over-rated him based on his freekick and penalty taking, and his general persona. That his actual goalkeeping (which was my main priority here) was not as good as that of a number of contemporaries and that when he came and played in Europe he never impressed as he had done in S America.

Who called it right, or should he have been somewhere in between?

 

Good question. Do we simply blindly accept that they merited it?

Were Manga, Barbosa and Emerson Leao worthy of their spots, or at least the height that they got?

Were they actually better than Taffarel, who I never considered to be one of the world's best keepers? Or is it just because we know that Brazil produces such good outfield players that their legends from any position almost get a free ride?

 

Sorry, I said I'd come back to these and never did.

I'm not sure on the gloves point. I just looked on wikipedia and it claims that Carrizo was the first to wear gloves, but that seems dubious.

I just did a quick search of some images and can't find Zamora, Swift or Grosics wearing gloves, so really not sure on that one.

On Mazurkiewicz, that's an interesting point. Any idea why? I'm away on work at the moment, so don't have my books with me, but did Uruguay play many games in the era? I know that a few of their other great players didn't play that many games either.

 

I just noticed that Khomich was the only player without a wikipedia page, so I've just created a brief one. I seem to find that the players who most rarely have wiki pages tend to be Russians. I think I've created about 4 for them of major international players.

 

Rustu was a flop though when he did play at a big club with Barca. He was very good in 2002 in fairness, but not sure he was ever among the elite. To be fair the same thing could be said about Friedel I think.

Whenever I see Rustu I still think about the guy who took him with the 8th pick of one of the first World Drafts ... and then put him on the bench. Genuinely the worst pick of all time.

 

I think it comes down to a few factors really.

The first is around the difficulty of judging the different eras. Goalkeeping, while the most constant position throughout the history of the game, has I think improved over time significantly. The size and athleticism of keepers means that they are of a higher standard generally. But how do we judge that against the keepers of lore? We can't simply go on technical proficiency, we must also compare people by their era.

Secondly I think when I came to this website I probably had a natural suspicion of the orthodoxy, particularly in relation to many of the British players. The thing is that the more you see and read about them though, the easier it is to accept the received wisdom. Just for instance, I've just been reading a book by Jimmy Greaves about his 51 favourite ever "heroes and entertainers" (it's a pretty lightweight book, but interesting nonetheless). He puts Yashin as the best keeper ever, and talks at length about the 1973 game. Now for someone like him who played with Banks and Jennings, and has seen all the best keepers to put him at number one does have some worth.

Thirdly my views tend to change on a periodic basis. I mean for instance that during most of the 90s I didn't consider Schmeichel to be the best in the world. I remember regarding Pagliuca and then Peruzzi as better for much of the 90s. Then Buffon came along. So sometimes I wonder if Schmeichel was really as good as I remember him to have been.

I really don't think that goalkeeper was that clear cut a position. I think that the established order may or may not be a reasonable one. And I do think that I have moved away from the orthodoxy at least a little. Banks isn't in my top 3!

 

Yes, it's a tragedy and I don't understand it. It's not just England either, Wales haven't produced a top keeper since Southall and Northern Ireland since Jennings.

England have had a production line of top keepers. The last dearth of keepers equal to the one we have today was in the late 1920s, after Sam Hardy but before Harry Hibbs. We keep having young keepers come through who are built up, but ultimately turn out to be mediocre. Kirkland, Robinson, Carson, Green, Foster.

Scotland's record of producing goalkeepers of course is largely a terrible one.

Goram, Brown, Simpson, Leighton. That's about it. Never mention Alan Rough or Frank Haffey to a Scotsman, unless you want to make them cry.

In fairness both Gordon and McGregor at the moment are relatively decent.

 

Yes, and even he was a level down from the greats that gone before him. He was no Shilton or Banks. He was steady rather than spectacular, and sometimes didn't move his feet quickly enough to adjust for the unexpected. Witness the shot from Nayim or Ronaldinho's freekick.

No goalkeeper should ever give himself the nickname "Safe Hands".

 

Re: The 100 Greatest Goalkeepers of All Time

Yes, as lanman pointed out the main reason is that I was only going off domestic performances for the first list. But when you include internationals and other leagues things do change around a bit.

The other thing I would say is that these lists could change around a bit. For instance the more you read or see of a player the more you change your opinions. I'm always open to be persuaded of the merits of different players.

I can tell you now that I'm sure some British players will feature in these lists who weren't in my ones about the English league, either because I hadn't heard of them at the time or my opinion of them has changed.

Like I said previously I don't pretend that these lists are scientific or definitive. They were first intended as a way for me to find out more about some of the greats of the game, and secondly a way of creating some debate on these boards.