The 100 Greatest X of All Time Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by comme, Nov 19, 2009.

  1. comme

    comme Moderator Staff Member

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    Feb 21, 2003
    As I have outlined in the first post of

    http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?p=19314154#post19314154

    over the coming months I am going to be revealing my lists of the 100 greatest players in the world by position.

    This is the thread for you all to discuss these in.

    Please do participate. If you have anything to say, be it criticism, praise or questions then feel free to do it here. Hopefully it will be constructive, but do take the time to take part.

    Don't feel as well that you have to wait until the list is complete to comment. I'm more than happy for speculation of all sorts in this thread.

    Also don't be afraid of not knowing who someone is or of being shot down. This is an open forum for friendly debate. If you think I'm missing someone out then let me know and I'll give you my thoughts.

    Edit:

    Goalkeepers

    http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?p=19314154#post19314154

    Right-backs

    http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?p=19541245#post19541245

    Left-backs

    http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1293864

    Centre-backs

    http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1317884

    Sweepers

    http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1353473

    Defensive Midfielders

    http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1392586

    Right-wingers

    http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1442658

    Left-wingers

    http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1524392

    Attacking Midfielders

    http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1559106

    Forwards
    http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1591983

    Strikers

    http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1636973

    A Brief History of Tactics

    http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1269077&highlight=tactics


  2. el-choul

    el-choul Super Moderator Staff Member

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    On goalies, Antonio "Cinco Copas" Carbajal should make your top 100, if nothing more for participating in a record 5 World Cups. Granted, he played for Mexico, so he also owns the record for most goals against in WC history.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonio_Carbajal

    Good work Comme. I'm looking forward to reading your lists over the coming weeks/months.
  3. Dark Savante

    Dark Savante Member

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    Well, you and Greg' always get my utmost respect for making the effort to put things like this out there for the masses.

    So I'll say again, hats off to you, sir.

    ;)
  4. Teso Dos Bichos

    Teso Dos Bichos Dance puppets

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    Did you weight the criteria from the start or was it player dependent?

    Will you be providing justification, notably as we near the end of each lists, or will you leave it to concentrate on responding to any points raised in the discussion?


  5. Perú FC

    Perú FC Member+

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    Just I've to say that I thought in carrying out similar lists, I believe it's possible, but only to think about the time I'd delay in clarifyng so many positions about so many players seems me too complex.

    I'll wait to see how do you go carrying out your ranking but I should congratulate you in advance by the great effort and the know-how that you should have to be able to do this comme ;).

    A question, I've a small blog where I put some football information in general, would you leave me to publish your rankings there?, evidently I'd indicate you're the author.
  6. comme

    comme Moderator Staff Member

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    I was intending only to answer questions or discussion points. I will be going into a lot of detail to justify all the points, but will be happy to calrify where anybody requires it.

    I don't quite get your question on the criteria. Could you explain?
  7. comme

    comme Moderator Staff Member

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    Of course you can publish them there. If you link across to here as well, hopefully it might bring some more traffic as well.
  8. dor02

    dor02 Member

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    Why have you rated Barbosa better than Turek or Olivieri?

    I thought Carbajal should have been in the Top 20 or Top 30, although that would mostly be based on his World Cup experience. It seems that his club record counts against him in this list.
  9. comme

    comme Moderator Staff Member

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    Good question. It's very hard to rate these guys. To my knowledge there is basically zero footage of Olivieri, same of Barbosa and minimal of Turek.

    Makes it hard to compare such players.

    But everything I had read about Barbosa suggested that he was a superb keeper, unfairly maligned for a nation's misfortune.

    Olivieiri is a difficult one as well. He appeared twice in major selections, playing for Western Europe and also the Rest of the World. He was though overshadowed by 3 contemporary keepers who I felt edged him out. That may be why he falls down the list a bit. He was also very unlucky in that the war came along at just the time when he would probably have been peaking. Real shame that.

    My understanding was that he had great longevity, but perhaps not as much quality as some of the other greats.
  10. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

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    A player that probably won't be featured is the Yugoslavian Petar "Radi" Radenkovic.

    He played for Red Star and OFK Belgrade between 1951 and 1960, then for Wormatia Worms. In 1962 he became the goalkeeper of TSV 1860 Munich, with whom he won the German Cup in 1964, reached the Cup Winners Cup final in 1965 and won the Bundesliga championship in 1966.

    While he was a superb keeper, what really made him famous in Germany and what set him apart from probably all other contemporary keepers, was his habit for deep forays out of the penalty box, which was a trademark feature of him. Radenkovic was arguably the most famous goalkeeper in Germany in the 1960s, having a hit record in 1965 titled "Bin I Radi Bin I König" (Am I Radi, Am I King). Sepp Maier, keeper of Bayern Munich, and Radenkovic's big rival, answered that song with his own one: "Bin I Radi, Bin I Depp, König is der Maier Sepp" (Am I Radi, Am I Twat, King is da Maier Sepp).

    The following is a highlights clip of Radenkovic's performance in the 1965 Cup Winners Cup final held at Wembley against West Ham United. Note how unfamiliar the English commentator is with Radenkovic's readiness to come out of the penalty box for interceptions halfway to the midline (at 0:58).

    [ame=www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYqUGo1u5ik&]Radi Radenkovic Wembley '65[/ame]
  11. Teso Dos Bichos

    Teso Dos Bichos Dance puppets

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    Is your weighting consistent throughout the entire list (i.e. 1 > 2 > 3) or are you adjusting the weighting on a player by player basis?
  12. comme

    comme Moderator Staff Member

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    The criteria doesn't have a hierarchy. So number 1 is not more important than number 2 or 3. Those have generally what I have tried to look for in players though when weighing them up.

    If my criteria varies it should be by position. So a winger who is superb for 5 years ir more likely to rate highly than a goalkeeper who has a very high level but for a short period. That I think reflects the nature of some positions as against others.

    There was no formula though. I made initial lists of many, many players by position based on awards, successful teams and the many books and magazines that I have. Then I went through and further researched each player. Then I went back and jigged the order into what I felt was a reasonable listing. Then I went and suggested the lists to some of the members of these boards to get some of their thoughts.

    So there was no clear system, simply judgement based on a few key areas.
  13. comme

    comme Moderator Staff Member

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    I must confess Greg that I'd never heard of him (I'm sure there will be some notable omissions). Looks to have been a good keeper from that video. Not just his willingness to come out but also made some really good saves.

    He almost got caught out in the second half when he raced out, Hurst went round him and he fouled him. That would be a sending off in the modern game no doubt.

    Of all the sweeper-keepers, I can't remember England to have produced one. In England people traditionally say that goalkeepers are mad, but I guess that ours aren't quite as mad as the rest of the world's.
  14. Perú FC

    Perú FC Member+

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    Thanks mate ;).
  15. Perú FC

    Perú FC Member+

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    What exactly I think about Antonio Carbajal. "El Cinco Copas" owes his international fame especially to his longevity, the better contemporary example for me would be the Arabian goalkeeper Mohammed Al-Deayea, record man about all-time international appearances and, just if Saudi Arabia would have classified this last time, would have reached also the 5 participations in World Cups. In spite of that, seems just as a medium level goalkeeper, not capable to enter in a historic list.
  16. dor02

    dor02 Member

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    I agree that Mohammed Al-Deayea wouldn't belong here. I actually think that he is all about experience and very little to do with skill.

    Ravelli relied on longetivity too. I think he only got praise for his performance at USA 94, especially his save against Romania in the quarter-final penalty shoot-out. Before that, he was known to be erratic. I thought he was whinger too.

    I'm glad to see that Peruzzi is rated higher than Pagliuca. As great as Pagliuca was, I thought that Peruzzi made better saves and he probably would have had a better career if it wasn't for injuries.
  17. comme

    comme Moderator Staff Member

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    Yeah, I don't think he was at the level of Al Deayea, he was a very good goalkeeper, but at the same time top 50 would be excessive in my opinion.

    Remember we now operate in an era of 32 team WCs which obviously wasn't the case when Carbajal was operating. So the standard was higher. But at the same time Mexico were not a very strong team. The teams they were competing against were mainly minnows, and that is reflected in their performances at the tournament.

    Has he represented another country not only would he struggle to reach the tournament (very few teams at the time reached 5 consecutive tournaments), and it is unlikely that he would have been unrivalled for his position during that time.
  18. billyireland

    billyireland Member+

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    I have to admit that I thought Shay Given would figure in the top 100 (granted there are 30 more still to come, but I would be very suprised to see him above his contemporaries VDS or Casillas). His big shortfalling is obviously the achievements bracket, as Newcastle didn't win any silverware when he was around and with a nation like Ireland you are not winning any big international tournaments.

    However in terms of peak performance, he has for the entire decade been in the bracket just a little below the likes of Casillas & Buffon (who are both 100% legit all-timers in their position). In 100 international caps - which he spent an equal measure both only having a few saves a game or being 'under the kosh' for the guts of 90 minutes - he has just one poor performance (4-2 loss vs. Russia in 2002) and quite possible dozens of MotM-level games. In this regard he has been easily Ireland's best 'keeper ever and quite arguably one of our greatest players ever.

    At club level for Newcastle, he again is the greatest goalkeeper in the clubs history, and arguably one of their greatest players in any position. He is certainly their best player over the last 10-(possibly)15 years after Shearer of course, who is heads-and-shoulders #1 in that clubs' history. During the Robson years he was often a one-man defense (apart from the rare times Woodgate was fit in his stint there) as they got into the Champion's League. In some of the down years that followed for them there is a decent argument to be made that Given was the main reason for avoiding relegation (or at least a relegation battle); in the same season Given left the club, Newcastle were relegated. Given's consistency for Newcastle speaks for itself - iirc, despite having a backup the quality of Steve Harper behind him, Given started every competitive game (all competitions) for something like 4-5 years, eventually missing out due to the birth of his daughter and a few subsequent niggling injuries.

    ...and now for the obligatory 'Youtube' hype video (including the obligatory dodgy music :D)
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkLNUaTGuJM"]YouTube- Thank You - Shay Given[/ame]

    I am assuming Given is in the 'very honourable mentions' bracket then, as comparing him & Friedel in terms of quality, consistency, etc has always been a matter of splitting hairs (in my opinion, anyway)?

    Don't get me wrong though - this is a great achievement and some undertaking on your part, Comme.
  19. comme

    comme Moderator Staff Member

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    I won't be giving too much away to say that yes, he now isn't going to make the list. He was in the list of those I considered, but he didn't make the final cut. I will give a listing at the end of those who came close to making it.

    I think I need to start by pointing out that he is only 33 now. The only current players who are younger than him and are on the list are Casillas and Buffon. So as I said at the start I am probably penalising current players for the difficulty in judging careers before they finish.

    For a keeper as well he has plenty of time to move up. If I had done this list 5 years ago, I don't think VDS would have cracked the top 75. He has time on his side, and if I did this again in 10 years he could quite well make the list.

    He is hurt by the fact that he has played for teams that never challenged for silverware as well. With the way that City are building that could well change.

    I did initially have an Irish keeper in the top 100 (Packie Bonner), but once I went back through he went out.
  20. billyireland

    billyireland Member+

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    Yeah upon clicking on the thread title for the keepers list, I was curious if even both would be in there. Still, I would have had Given higher than Bonner, despite the latter's respectable trophy haul at Celtic. I do understand where you are coming from on this, mind.
  21. comme

    comme Moderator Staff Member

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    I think what hurts them both to an extent is that they have never been among the top 3 or so keepers in the world. I think that Given has been for almost this entire decade among the best 10 or so keepers, but he has never broken into the very highest bracket.

    If City could qualify for the CL, and make it into the latter stages then he could have the opportunity to prove his worth among the real big boys.
  22. argentine soccer fan

    argentine soccer fan Moderator Staff Member

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    Excellent job, comme.

    Looking at the five Argentine goalkeepers that you recognized, I think I have to agree with you 100 percent on how you placed them.

    Even as a Boca Juniors fan, I have to say that River Plate's Amadeo Carrizo and Ubaldo Fillol deserve the top two spots, with Carrizo being our best ever, as well as an innovator. He is said to have been the first goalkeeper to wear gloves.

    As far as the Boca Juniors players, I always rated Antonio Roma ahead of Hugo Gatti, even though many other Boca fans do otherwise and we've had our share of arguments.

    Of course, maybe watching Roma play since I started going to La Bombonera as an eight year old, (he retired when I was ten), he was to me bigger than life.

    I got to see a lot more of Gatti, during my teen years. Both were excellent goalkeepers of very different characteristics. "Tarzan" Roma was very physical, intimidating and dominant in The penalty area. "El Loco" Gatti was unortodox, charismatic, and a pioneer of the goalie as a libero school of goalkeeping. (And unlike most of his successors, he was hardly ever caught out of position.) Both were known for stopping penalty shots in key situations.

    And digging Americo Tesoriere -another Boca Juniors great- from the amateur era is very impressive. Shows the quality of your research
  23. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

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    Excellent job, Comme. Too bad the profiles you had written are lost.

    While perusing the top 30, I had the following thoughts:

    Interesting to see that pic of Giampiero Combi with gloves. I thought goalkeepers didn't start to wear gloves before the 1960s or so (btw, Comme, you have Combi's death date instead of his birth date in the profile). Maybe it was an avant-garde Italian fashion statement?

    It's remarkable that one of the best goalkeepers of all-time, Ladislao Mazurkiewicz, only managed 36 caps (took part in three World Cups).

    Pat Jennings had a very long international career. Debuted in 1964 and still played in the 1986 World Cup. Even for a goalkeeper that's oustanding longevity. I wonder if that is a record? Lothar Matthäus debuted in 1980 and still played in Euro 2000, which could be a record for a field player.

    Ah no, the record is of course held by Stanley Matthews! A quick check proves: debut in 1934, still playing for England in 1957.

    I wonder how Yashin managed to become the default #1 goalkeeper of all-time. It's almost like people feel obliged to put him at #1 everytime a list of the greatest ever goalkeepers is done. He has a reputation among goalkeepers like Pelé has among field players. I however doubt that he really overshadowed all other keepers in the history of football to such an extent. There are few all-time greats that played as disastrous a tournament as Yashin did in Chile '62.
  24. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

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    Aside from the aforementioned Shay Given & Petar Radenkovic, other goalies that could have made the Top 100 are Uli Stein, Friedl Koncilia, Rudi Kargus, Joel Bats, Georges Carnus, Bruce Grobbelaar, Anzor Kavazashvili, Enver Maric, Borislav Mikhailov.
  25. lanman

    lanman BigSoccer Supporter

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    I still think Andy Goram should have been in there. For me, his four year peak in the early 90s is better than anyone outside the top 50 can muster, and he was still a top quality keeper outside of that period.

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