I think you'll all agree now after Torres recent form in Europe against Inter Milan and in the league with 2 hat-tricks to his name, Torres is going to be a massive player for Liverpool and the Premiership in years to come! Tevez is more of a creative player but Man Utd are a better quality team than Liverpool overall so he will probably weigh in with 15 goals a season.
1. Anyone who knew Torres was fully expecting him to deliver. The only question was to what extent considering Liverpool's somewhat negative style of football in comparison to others. Full credit to the lad for managing to perform to such a high standard regardless. God only knows how good he would be if Liverpool played a more expansive attacking game. 2. Tevez has already hit that mark in all competitions this season and that is despite running on empty thanks to having had no break due to Copa America and no pre-season due to the delay in his transfer. It will be good to see both Tevez and Rooney firing on all cylinders after they both have the summer off. With a break and having adapted to our team and players then I would fully expect at a return of 20+ goals.
Wait a sec...Mascherano didnt have a break yet hes one of the worlds best players on current form and he is the worlds best in his position. Stop making excuses for your players...every post youve made in the last week has been about Tevez being too tired and overworked. Grow some balls and admit that he hasnt been playing well...and that goes for a lot of your players: for Carrick's poor form, you blamed the attackers in your team, for Rooney you blame the manager and for Tevez you blame the game. And negative game style...why dont you watch a replay of the Liverpool vs Man Utd game at Anfield and tell me who was employing the "10-seater bus" tactic outside their own area.
Come on Grinners89, you are smarter than this... How is a player expected to perform to the best of his ability when he is clearly fatigued? Do you honestly not think that it has an impact on their game? The comparison you made was a poor one but rather than go into the details and get bogged down in appearances and the like I will just tell you the situation. If you don't believe me then feel free to look it up yourself. Tevez is slightly ahead in appearances made overall since arriving in England. It's not purely down to appearances though because it has everything to do with periods of rest and then crucially having a pre-season. Unfortunately for Tevez he has missed the latter over the last two seasons because of the timing of his transfer to both West Ham and Man Utd. While the same obviously applies to Mascherano in the case of West Ham it does not for Liverpool and Mascherano benefited from an extended break while at West Ham regardless. Aside from that we have other issues like adjusting to a new team, which Mascherano had already done, and the differences in their roles but I will put the latter to one side. Sticking with club football it is perhaps unsurprising to note that Tevez featured considerably more for Boca than Mascherano did for River and considerably more for Corinthians while both were at the club. Moving onto international football you will find that Tevez has featured in a tournament every summer from 2004 onwards (he actually featured in two in 2004). We also have the numerous youth tournaments which take place at other times but I left those out for simplicity. Now much of the same applies to Mascherano in terms of international football but obviously the impact was less because he has played considerably less games, had more rest and more importantly had a pre-season. Tevez is running on empty at the moment and has not been at his best this season because of it. I have never claimed that he has been in top form but what I have done is explain why that is not the case instead of ignorantly bashing him as others have done. Despite not being at his best he has still made a positive impact and that bodes well for the future. Unless he is stupidly dragged to the Olympics during the summer he will finally get a summer off and be well rested for next season. That is when I will fully judge him. I have already had conversations with you about the other two players you mentioned so I will not do so again here. Using one game as an example is very foolish, as is trying to claim that you style of football is anywhere near that of Man Utd or Arsenal. I made a legitimate point and it stands. Torres has done exceptionally well considering it is his first season in a new league and he is playing in a less than expansive attacking side. It's only natural to wonder how he would do if Benitez grew a pair and changed his approach.
Yet you say that its the fault of Rafa and his rotation which has made Liverpool 11 points behind the leaders in the league. You should make your mind up on this topic...you say that if a player is fatigued he wont perform yet you say that he shouldnt be rotated for someone who is fully fit. Id like to know in where or from which game you got the idea that we play negative football. We have a GK who plays as a sweeper and always (if possible) keeps the ball along the ground and in possession (whether by a throw or pass). Playing short-passing, possession football might not suit your british style of "100 miles/hour" kick and chase football but that doesnt mean its negative. Liverpool always try and keep possession of the football until there is a chance to attack, rather than recklessly lobbing the ball forward and hoping for a defensive mistake...i think youve been reading too much british press who's common line after a Liverpool in is..."Liverpool were lucky to play [opposition] on a bad day". On individual players, our defenders (unlike Vidic and Ferdinand) choose to pass the ball to the full-backs or our central midfielders unless they are all closed down. When we do kick the ball long its actually TO a teammate (eg Reina to Torres vs Fulham and on many other occasions). Oh...btw weve scored 99 goals this season from 47 games...thats 2.11 goals per game from a negative, defensive team. Man Utd (supposedly and expansive, attacking team) have scored 86 goals from 44 games...thats 1.95 goals per game. And yes i know your answer will be that stats dont matter...but Teso...STATS DONT LIE...for a defensive team, weve outscored you this season. On topic now...Torres performed better than Tevez this season and scored more goals, from all different situations with 4 different partners...as well as changing his game and playing as the supporting striker when he has been partnered by Crouch. This article is a very good summation of Torres and his skills...he is the prototype centre-forward...a player who can play every single attacking role without having to be told how to do it. http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/news/drilldown/NG156333070709-1433.htm
I wonder whether any of the following will deal with the issue you raised about Mascherano/Tevez and fatigue... It is not black or white. I know this and you know this. I have also dealt with this issue before and see no need to repeat myself. Anything on Mascherano/Tevez and fatigue? Negative. Honestly Grinners89, I know you are smarter than this and you know that I will not only be reading your posts but responding to them. With that in mind I feel to compelled to ask what the motivation was behind that utter drivel? Liverpool, whether you chose to accept it or not, do play a less expansive attacking game than either Man Utd or Arsenal. It was the point I initially made and it is a point that cannot be refuted. To have not only the gall to do so while also throwing in any generalisation you can think of is a pretty poor effort. Anything on Mascherano/Tevez and fatigue? Negative. Hilarious. This boy is here all week! Trying to compare the ball playing ability of Liverpool's central defenders to Rio Ferdinand. Classic. It would have been a lot easier and less embarrassing had you simply admitted to knowing little about either the players or teams in question. Aside from that Vidic is actually a pretty good passer, particularly at distance. Anything on Mascherano/Tevez and fatigue? Negative. Q. Was Chelsea a defense first side under Mourinho? A. Yes. Q. Did Chelsea still score a lot of goals? A. Yes. Q. Does that make them an expansive attacking side? A. No. Stats might not 'lie' but they can be misinterpreted, as you have done above. I'm not even going to debate this topic with you because anyone who watches the sides in question know for a fact that both Man Utd and Arsenal play a more expansive attacking game. You could even add Spurs to the list since Ramos arrived. Liverpool are lucky in that they have had additional games in qualifying rounds and against lower league opposition to boost their goal figures (that coupled with rare result like the Besiktas one). There is little merit in even discussing the difference between teams like Luton (twice), Havant & Waterlooville and Barnsley in comparison to teams like Aston Villa, Spurs, Arsenal and Portsmouth. In case you were wondering that was our respective FA Cup runs. I'm not going to argue the point because it does not change the fact that Liverpool are not an expansive attacking side. Anything on Mascherano/Tevez and fatigue? Negative. The question posed was: 'Who has impressed you the most, Carlos or Fernando?' Until Torres hit his current scoring run the answer was not clear. Now that he has everyone will rightfully say Torres. The thing is I can easily state that but still accept that Tevez has had his season disrupted (as I detailed above). It is clearly relevant and it would be ignorant to dismiss it. Unfortunately you simply refuse to do so despite all of the evidence to the contrary. What is so difficult in saying that Torres has impressed but we will need to wait and judge Tevez when he is fully fit? Why the refusal to do so? For the record I have not read the linked article because I know all about Torres and did so before he moved to Liverpool. That is why I am not surprised by his impact. The only thing I am surprised with is how well he has done despite the team around him but he was doing that at his previous club anyway. The only difference is he has stepped it up a notch. Anything on Mascherano/Tevez and fatigue? Negative. Replace 'ownage' with 'shite' and you would be correct.
I did not raise it...your first post was just a list of excuses for Tevez on why he hasnt performed better than Torres. If you want me to go into detail about fatigue, how and when it occurs and how professional athletes limit and/or prevent it then feel free to ask...but ill warn you, it doesnt suit your point . I know we do. I was refuting your statement that Liverpool are a negative, defensive side that Rafa restricts from playing with any freedom. Dont change my words to suit your point...ive already brought this up with you many times before and its a very weak effort. Firstly Agger is one of the best distributors of the ball in the world and much better skilled than either Ferdinand or Vidic. However, I never said that Carragher and Hyypia had better technical skills than the Man Utd defenders, i said that their role is to distribute the ball to either the full-backs or the 'pivot' (usually Xabi, or Masch when Xabi isnt fit) of the team. Thats the 2nd time that youve changed my words to suit your point. Teso, stop doing now, unless your purposely trying to annoy me because you have no backing to your point and its your last resort. I fixed the 2nd answer, which was wrong...come on Teso, you had a a 50% chance to get it right and you still got it wrong. Chelsea's goalscoring since 04/05 season. PL 04/05 - 72 goals from 38 games (1.89 goals per game) PL 05/06 - 72 goals from 38 games (1.89 gpg) PL 06/07 - 64 goals from 38 games (1.68 gpg) CL 04/05 - 21 goals from 12 games (1.75 gpg) CL 05/06 - 9 goals from 8 games (1.13 gpg) CL 06/07 - 17 goals from 12 games (1.42 gpg) No Teso, i think your the comedian. Your opening gag...Did Chelsea score a lot of goals under Mourinho?...I fell off my chair when i heard that. Glad that you agree with me...i never said that Liverpool play a more expansive game than Man Utd and Arsenal, just that we dont play a negative defensive game. Im sure ive heard that before... ...Do you work for Skysports or the Daily Mail? Liverpool have been really lucky this season...like with our injuries (Agger for the season, Torres 3 times, Gerrard broken toe, every full-back and winger injured, Xabi injured for months plus all the recurrences...wait Reina, Riise and Crouch are the only players not be injured and miss games ) and CL draw...i mean who wouldnt want the possibility of facing 3 Premier League teams on the road to the final Ok...so you're allowed to pick and choose the games that suit you...a goal is a GOAL. (H) = Home, (A) = Away if anyone gets confused. Liverpool (8 goals)...Man Utd (5 goals) (H) Liverpool vs Derby (6-0)...(A) Liverpool vs Derby (2-1) (H) Man Utd vs Derby (4-1)...(A) Man Utd vs Derby (1-0) Liverpool (7 goals)...Man Utd (2 goals) (H) Liverpool vs Bolton (4-0)...(A) Liverpool vs Bolton (3-1) (H) Man Utd vs Bolton (2-0)...(A) Man Utd vs Bolton (0-1) Liverpool (4 goals)...Man Utd (3 goals) (H) Liverpool vs Portsmouth (4-1)...(A) Liverpool vs Portsmouth (0-0) (H) Man Utd vs Portsmouth (2-0)...(A) Man Utd vs Portsmouth (1-1) Liverpool (5 goals)...Man Utd (5 goals) (H) Liverpool vs Sunderland (3-0)...(A) Liverpool vs Sunderland (2-0) (H) Man Utd vs Sunderland (1-0)...(A) Man Utd vs Sunderland (4-0) Just a few fixtures that both teams have played home and away. I will settle the debate right here Teso... Tevez - 15 goals from 36 appearances (30 starts and 6 sub) Torres - 27 goals from 36 appearances (32 starts and 4 sub) Torres injuries that interrupted his season Pre-season - ankle injury...couldnt train 100% for 2 1/2 weeks 13/10/07 - Adductor (missed Everton game) 28/10/07 - Adductor (re-injured during Arsenal game, taken off at half time, missed Blackburn game and on bench for Besiktas and Fulham game but not 100%) 7/2/08 - Hamstring (missed Chelsea game) Reina, Carragher, Agger, Mascherano, Xabi Alonso, Gerrard and Torres...gee Liverpool's spine really needs to be improved. Do you want to name the Atletico spine from the last few seasons? Teso, you were going so well up until this point. You made a good, mature post and replied to everything that i wrote...yet you seem to have this inability to not attack people and their opinions. I think that spending 24/7 on BigSoccer has hindered your social and/or intellectual development, but hey, its not too late to change.
Incorrect. My post was to explain that any comparison made between Tevez and Torres would be inherently unfair because one player is clearly not match fit. It obviously has a major impact on his game, so you are therefore not comparing like for like. Therefore Torres has clearly impressed more at this stage but we need to wait before we can fairly judge (or in the case of some) bash Tevez. You retorted with the following: I then responded in detail to correct you and fully explain the situation but you chose to conveniently ignore it in subsequent posts. Why you did so is pretty obvious. If you wish to deal with that issue now then feel free. You can either do it here or do it via PM. If you do not then fair enough. I initially stated: I then responded to your next post with: Why then did you chose to disagree with my initial statement if you now freely admit that it was correct? Why also disagree after you had brought Man Utd into the equation and after I then clarified my point by including Arsenal as well? Your first section is clear Liverpool bias at play. You know I rate Agger and a simple search will provide proof of that. It doesn't change the fact that Ferdinand is simply better. Your refusal to give a rival player any credit is quite sad. I do not dispute that Agger has more to his game than Vidic but they are completely different types of central defender. One thing I would disagree with, and I did, is you claim that Vidic is inferior in terms of distribution. I disagree because that is one of his strong points, notably mid to long-range passing. I know exactly what you said. You made the claim that Liverpool's defenders were far better at distributing the ball than either Ferdiand or Vidic. You then added a quip about long range passing. Unfortunately for you the claim is incorrect, as I mentioned above. Anyone who has watched either team can attest to the accuracy of what I have posted. I'll ignore the infantile remarks at the end of that section. (1) 04/05 Chelsea 72-15 Arsenal 87-36 Man Utd 58-26 Liverpool 52-41 (2) 05/06 Chelsea 72-22 Man Utd 72-34 Liverpool 57-25 Arsenal 68-31 (3) 06/07 Man Utd 83-27 Chelsea 64-24 Liverpool 57-27 Arsenal 63-35 Chelsea's Premiership record in is therefore as follows: (1) Second in goals scored and least goals conceeded (both by some distance). (2) Equal on total goals scored and least goals conceeded for the second year in succession. (3) Second in total goals scored and least goals conceed for the third season in succession. What you forget to do when constructing your reply was to examine things on a season by season basis in comparison to Chelsea's main rivals. Not doing so blinded you to the reality of the situation. Mourinho had a defense first approach but despite that Chelsea still scored a lot of goals. Feel free to look at European competition and domestic cups if you wish but I chose not to for two reasons. (1) I simply could not be bothered at 05whatever, and (2) it eliminated the luck of the draw and providing a fair method of comparing the four sides both in terms of games played and the level of opposition. *sigh* See above. Are you honestly trying to claim that neither the luck of the draw (in terms of getting lower league opposition numerous times) nor the 'luck' of playing in more games (due to qualification matches and cup replays) had any impact on Liverpool having scored more goals? Seriously? I'll ignore your rambling because I can only assume you misinterpreted that section. I did not 'pick and choose' games. What I did was refer to our respective fixtures in a single cup competition. If you are incapable of grasping the point I made then simply ask for further explanation. That you even had the gall to attempt that after everything discussed in this thread is beyond me. Quoting a statement from a completely different thread? Pity it failed to further your point an iota. Had you bothered to read my posts from elsewhere or had any knowledge of the two players this thread is intended to discuss then you would have realised that Tevez is not a striker. I'll let that sink in for a minute. No idea why you bothered to list Torres' injuries, so I'll ignore it and move onto the next section. If you are referring to what I think you are then the answer is quite simple. Atletico Madrid (in later years) had more in terms of offense and attacking play which meant Torres, while still being a vital cog, was not required to do everything. You saw a lot more of his all-round play as he pulled the strings for their attack. At Liverpool he needs to focus more on scoring and having an impact in that way. Therefore he has had to focus more on his own end product (like in earlier years) but also had to raise it a notch. Before we deal with your last section I would like to repost the following: What is so difficult in saying that Torres has impressed but we will need to wait and judge Tevez when he is fully fit? Why the refusal to do so? You do not have time to think about smack talk when the quality of your posting is in such a sorry state. Baby steps Grinners89. Baby steps. Now for the love of God please THINK about you next response. I know you are better than this shite. Over to you.
You are incorrect on Spurs and Ramos. They played expansive football for Jol and scored lots of goals but didn't defend properly and let too many in. Under Ramos they have become more defensive. And getting Woodgate hasn't hurt either. So I guess you have never watched Spurs play then.
They were are attacking side under Job but under Ramos they are a a far more expansive attacking side. The difference is clear but I suppose I did alright when a Liverpool fan only has a complaint about a single sentence from the entire post.
B@stard, you beat me to it. No, pure ownage is Man Utd 3 - 0 Liverpool with Torres contributing sweet FA while Tevez comes on and contributes to another 2 goals.
You noticed then, yes? Still it was the easy kill and it still contained more wit and wisdom than some of the utter drivel that has been plastered onto this thread.
Tevez and Torres are such different players that it's impossible to simply pick one over the other. It depends on the needs of a certain team. If your team needs a forward to be withdrawn, to hold the ball and let your entire team into the attack, I'd go with Tevez. If you need a pure goal-scorer, I'd go with Torres. Between those two types of strikers, I have a greater appreciation for the first type. So if I had to choose, I'd go with Tevez.
