Tactics

Discussion in 'Real Madrid' started by Umar, Sep 23, 2009.

  1. Umar

    Umar Member+

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    There has been some discussion about our tactics so far this season. I think it would be good to have a thread specifically for tactical discussion, whether it be in relation to Madrid's tactics or tactical analysis generally.

    That way, Youngstars doesn't have to spam every thread complaining about Pellegrini (I kid, YS).

    I've just read this article by one of my favourite tactical writers, Jonathan Wilson. It discusses how the trend to a lone central attacker means that one centre-back is usually free. He suggests that a free centreback can act as cover for his other CB, but Wilson foresees the re-remergence of a traditional libero or sweeper role in top club football. Pepe must be really excited!

    "Could the Sweeper be on his way back" - By Jonathan Wilson
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  2. El-CapitanoR7

    El-CapitanoR7 Member

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    My personal favorite tactic is to play Kaka , C.Ronaldo , Xabi , Lass and Casillias ( Maybe Guti will warrant a place on this list if he keeps up his excellent form).. all at the same time. :p

    Seriously though... with the team we have now. I could be coach and I would think that the results would be similar. Time will tell when we play a serious contender. Barca , Milan in the CL ( Galliani said his players found the CL musical arousing... so you never know ) , Inter , Manchester United etc.

    As of now I have nothing to complain about. Tactics or otherwise.

    Edit: The rotations were a sexy touch by Manny.
  3. Frank Smith

    Frank Smith Red Card

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    I like the rotation, keeps everyone on their toes, but I don't think it is that useful for the striker position, especially when we have 4 strikers who can all put in a equal claim to start. It has been proven time and time again that we play better and even score more when we have the extra midfielder and play one striker. I hope to see this against Villarreal from the start.
  4. Umar

    Umar Member+

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    I don't think there is a causal connection between the two. The difference could be explained by the fact that we have much more quality on our bench than our opponents, so can score more in the final periods when players tire and the subs are brought on.


  5. Oscar

    Oscar Member+

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    Isn't Pepe basically already a 'libero'? He goes forward when possible (better examples would be Pique in Spain, and Lucio in Inter) taking advantage of the spaces left open, and he already covers other areas of the defense when needed, like say when the fullbacks go up.

    I think in modern football it's not uncommon to see defenders do these things, they just aren't named liberos anymore, as it's seen as an all-round centreback these days.
  6. Umar

    Umar Member+

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    Agreed to an extent, but I have seen him man-mark quite often too, especially when Canna was doing the directing of the defence. The reason we purchased Pepe was because he was impressing as the free sweeper in a three man defence IIRC, although I might be wrong.
  7. impalemeplz

    impalemeplz Member

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    i think if more than 3 out of benzema, guti, ronaldo, kaka, raul and higuain are on the pitch, at the same time, it shows defensively and will be punished against bigger foes. just a hunch. ;]
  8. Umar

    Umar Member+

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    That's not always the case. The first team florentino built often had Ronaldo, Guti, Figo, Zidane, Raul and Carlos on the pitch at the same time. And they usually played beautifully and did win titles at their peak.

    This team can adapt to having two forwards with Ronaldo and Kaka supporting. I do think that in order for it to work, we must learn to dominate possession far better than we have been doing, and the stars up front as well as the defensive-minded players need to press quickly high up the pitch when we lose the ball.

    We have a risky style, but you need to take risks to play great football. IMO Real Madrid should always aspire to play and win with great football, not just good football.
  9. -Fifth CharM-

    -Fifth CharM- BigSoccer Supporter

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    The tactics from this night worked brilliantly against Manchester United. It was nothing short of total domination.

    [​IMG]

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YTz-A_a5tU"]YouTube - Real Madrid 3:1 Manchester United -1st half[/ame]

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XpTXn3oJTRs&feature=related"]YouTube - Real Madrid 3:1 Manchester United -2nd half[/ame]
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  10. EstebanGranero23

    EstebanGranero23 Member

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    Attempting to replicate line-up:
    Iker
    SergioRamos4 Pepe3 Albiol18 Marcelo12
    Lass10 Xabi22
    CR9 Raul7/Guti14/Granero24 Kaka8
    Benzema11
    I think the only two misfits are Benzema and Marcelo, and only because of their age.
    And I know this isn't the line-up thread, its just that I think we can do it again.
  11. forcamadrid

    forcamadrid Member

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    Actually the misfits there are Kaka and CR9. Marcelo is a Roberto Carlos type of defender but of course not his quality. Same goes for Benzema. On the other hand, Kaka and CR9 are players that like to run/dribble with the ball and not pass it around so much, while Figo and Zidane were better in passing the ball.

    We have also been talking about our side lacking balance and being too overcroweded on the left side of the field because both of Ronaldo and Kaka drift to that side. If you see the video there you will notice that Figo and Zidane did that a lot, i.e. both being on the same side of the field (either right or left). But there are two factors now that make us unbalanced when CR9 and Kaka do that. First, as I said, they are better at running/dribbling than passing the ball. Second, back then we depended on our fullbacks to provide the width on the other side of the pitch. So when Figo and Zidane were moving right, RC would bomb forward on the left, and when Figo and Zidane were going left, Salgado would provide the width on the right. That way, were were making use of the space created by Fiog and Zidane dragging the defenders on their side.

    Now, unfortunately we don't have the same quality in our fullbacks. However, we can still use Marcelo who is very good going forward. That would mean though that CR9 and Kaka have to drift to the right to create room for Marcelo on the left.

    I would like us to try this sometimes.
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  12. Umar

    Umar Member+

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    Its also important to note that Raul wasn't really a midfielder in that formation, he was a supporting forward. So it IS possible to use the players we have to play well and destroy very good teams, provided each player knows their role when we have the ball and when we don't have it.

    Valdano's comments to realmadrid.com on how the team is playing currently were illuminating. He said our defence is performing well, but the fluidity and combinations in offence need time to become automated. In the meantime, until we get that team fluidity, the team is winning through efforts from the players as individuals. The extra effort put in by the players means that they are being rotated to keep them fresh, until we can get our teamwork to the level we aspire to.

    http://www.realmadrid.com/cs/Satell...icia/Noticia/Valdano_analyses_Real_Madrid.htm

    PS I disagree strongly with the assumption that we are somehow "unbalanced", or that this will be a problem. So long as we can maintain width through the fullbacks, and as long as we can retain possession to a high standard, I am all in favour of letting three of the front four roam. They are intelligent players and will learn to cover each others movements.
  13. forcamadrid

    forcamadrid Member

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    If you want to show total domination then it is better to use the other match when we beat MU in Old Trafford in 2000. I remember there was a moment when we passed the ball around MU area for like 5 minutes and they could not get the ball, until we decided to finalize the play. I tried to find clips from that game but could not. If someone posts clips, would be great.
  14. Umar

    Umar Member+

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    Ronaldo's second goal from Carlos's cross in 2003 at old Trafford was a beautiful example of sustained pressure, recycling of the offence and depth in attack. Carlos was the one who eventually pierced Manchester's line from the fullback position, after a period of danger.
  15. arcane

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    How I wish I could find and English ************** for those 2 legs. :(

    They seem to be all in French.

    Did the English burn all the copies? :D
  16. La-Furia

    La-Furia 7

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    God damn. Thanks for those 2 clips, I have great memories of that game. Just watching that highlight clip (the the first half), watch the play at around 9.30, such a beautiful passing game!

    Another thing that highlighted is just how brilliant and subtle Zidane was and how important Makelele was too our team.

    Good times.
  17. arcane

    arcane Member

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    That lineup would bitch slap today's Barca :p
  18. YOUNGSTARS87

    YOUNGSTARS87 Yellow C@rd Bandit

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    I would think it'd be more of Benzema where Kaka is (Benzema floats left-center anyways), Ruud where Benzema is and Kaka where Raul is.

    That or go with the same formation with Guti being the string puller in the middle. It would work well because Guti floats out left and can interchange easily with Kaka who can move central.

    Cristiano would of course have all the freedom in the world.


    With the personnel we are playing (Cristiano, Raul, Kaka, Benzema) in Pellegrini's formation we no doubt are unbalanced. I'm not the only poster saying this, go read the Spanish forum. It's like for once we're all in agreement.

    Either we change the system to fit the personnel or we change the personnel to fit the system.... or we change both?

    Anyways, whenever we force all four of those guys on the pitch in Pellegrini's 4-2-2-2, what has been the outcome?


    Oh and your thread title is pants.
  19. Umar

    Umar Member+

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    Kaka can play attacking midfielder or as an offensive midfielder floating in from the flank. He often plays left-sided offensive midfielder for Brazil, with alot of freedom to roam in a kind of 4-2-2-2. There is no reason why he cannot play right-sided offensive midfielder with freedom to roam. He is good enough to do it, and he is given the freedom by the coach to be where he chooses when we have the ball.

    Benzema can play centreforward, supporting striker, and also drifts to the wings and attacks the inside-left channel. So he also fits the formation.

    Ronaldo can also play across the frontline supporting a lone forward. So he is not being asked to do anything extraordinary. Likewise, he is given the freedom to be where he wants when we are in possession.

    I feel it is better to give the top players the freedom to roam, with a strategic brief ("Ronaldo, try to offer width on the left touchline", or "Kaka, offer width on the right but come off your flank to feed the forwards" etc) instead of telling them, "Right, you're playing right-winger, stay the hell there". If we are being "unbalanced", it is because when one player rotates his position (Kaka or Ronaldo cutting in or switching flanks, or the forwards drifting to a flank), the others aren't moving intelligently to cover and give options. I haven't seen this occuring, since we are scoring goals from all areas of the pitch, not just the left, and we aren't being noticeably killed on either the left or right flanks from counters.

    I do see there being a lack of fluidity in attack. I have only seen a few really beautiful team moves (the last one being the one that Raul ballsed up against Tenerife?). But this isn't a problem with the player or the tactics, merely the fact that our team is not on autopilot yet. One second to take a look for a player (instead of knowing where the player is already) makes a hell of a difference at top level football, especially when you are trying to shift the ball at a high tempo in a packed final third.

    I think that will come with time, and importantly the club are aware of this. Valdano and Pellegrini have both referred to it recently, and Pellegrini is focused on improving the teamplay in both attack and defence.
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  20. 9Qui

    9Qui Moderator Staff Member

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    Or we give both the system and the personnel time.
  21. YOUNGSTARS87

    YOUNGSTARS87 Yellow C@rd Bandit

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    Thanks for the long write up Umar, but in that same post...



    Otra vez , Umar todos gracias, pero...



    I've never disagreed with this.


    I disagree and am now seeing it is more to do with the personnel he is playing for his formation/style.

    Nothing wrong with playing his 4-2-2-2, not my style or what I think would make winning a CL easier (considering how attacking our players are). So I'll detract the fact that his formation/style "needs" to be changed.

    However, he can't have his cake and eat it.

    He must make personnel changes so the system can be more fluid, so the players can get their space, so things can begin to "click" faster. Even though we all want to give Pellegrini years of time, we both know he doesn't have that much.

    Hell, even he knows this.


    This will be the key when we go against those English/Italian bus parkers. We both know they will park the bus against us at the Bernabeu, then counter attack us when we stretch out too much at their home game.

    .... or we can make a rational decision and not try to force something that doesn't seem to work with the personnel we have.


    A). You act as if there is a cry for major changes

    B). You act like Pellegrini has a lot of time. He even knows he doesn't.

    C). You act like giving time automatically equates to success, it does not.

    D). Since when is it not a good thing to make changes or adapt to things as we go?


    I for one can't wait till Ruud gets healthy.
  22. Umar

    Umar Member+

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    So YS, I assume that you prefer


    Ruud
    |
    Kaka/Higuain
    |
    Benzema ------------------ Ronaldo

    to



    Raul/Ruud
    |
    Benzema/Higuain
    |
    Ronaldo--------------------Kaka
    ?
  23. YOUNGSTARS87

    YOUNGSTARS87 Yellow C@rd Bandit

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    Not necessarily, I was just saying it is an open option. For instance, considering the fact that Ruud is injured (the best striker to lead our line), we put Benzema up front. You could then place Kaka behind him and Guti out left. I'm trying to be open-minded, eh?

    Options are endless, huh?
  24. Oscar

    Oscar Member+

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    I think you can't blame the use of Marcelo in the Sevilla game on Pelegrini, for the ones who do not want to see him there that is, since Arbeloa wasn't available for the match. I think if he was he would have made his first appearance as our leftback in an official game.

    Playing against Sevilla, knowing they have some of the best flanks in this league, you might have used both Drenthe as our leftback, and Marcelo as a leftmid. Hoping that by helping each other, and Marcelo tracks back great for a leftmid, they could have had a better chance. I'm not sure if we have seen this combination before last year, but given some chances, this might not be such a bad combination for the left actually. Drenthelo sounds even better than Raubery, so it would have to work.

    At least against stronger opposition, and if Arbeloa is not available. The problem is one player would have to leave in the original line-up to make this happen.
  25. Umar

    Umar Member+

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    I agree. I said it before the match and also during the half-time discussion, although I would have put Drenthe at LW and Marcelo at LB.

    Those two would have forced Navas to drop back far deeper, helping to lock that flank down. We could then have focussed our efforts on giving the ball to Kaka, who would have been roaming from the other flank.

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