You just said Hendo and Sterling are "future England internationals." What does that have to do with being talented now? The kids are 17 and 20 and way out of their depth in the hunt for the top 4. They'd not _start_ on any other top team.
Wasn't WBA just 4th a week ago? Are 15 other teams about to fire their manager? Swansea is ahead of us in the table? They must have had a real good manager the last couple years to bring them up from the championship and establish them as a premiership side. Btw, this is the short-sighted, knee-jerk, "toys out of the playpen" bullshit that got Benitez fired and ********in started this whole mess.
Not really. I am not saying Rodgers should be sacked. And I wanted Rafa to stay. He finished 7th in that last season with a pts total that had previously been enough to finish higher in the table. He was sacked for political reasons. Looking at this season, however let's not pretend that Rodgers has been getting the required results so far. 3 wins against relegation candidates is the current highpoint so far under Rodgers. It is clear that the team is underperforming and failing to get the results that reflect their quality. If you say that the results need to improve in the future, then you are agreeing with me that the current level of results is not good enough. You might be fine to think that 16 pts from 13 games is OK. I think it is underachieving. F@cking Allardyce has managed better than that with a newly promoted side. It is not about knee-jerk short-termism at all. It is assessing our season so far by looking at the results and measuring them relative to expectation. Sticking your head in the sand, and pretending things have been fine is just ignoring our season so far. If Rodgers does well, I will give him praise as his due, but when he has not done well, I will say so. He needs to get us winning more games because our current win rate is not acceptable. Last season Rodgers got praise and eventually the LFC job, because his Swansea team punched above their weight last season. He has not managed to do that so far at Anfield. Let's not pretend he has. Early days, yes, but these early days have not yielded impressive results at all. Dalglish got sacked last season and he got better pts per game than Rodgers has managed AND won us the League Cup and got us to an FA Cup Final. Rodgers has not improved the results from last season and that is a fact. Calling a regression a regression is an accurate assessment and not something I should meekly ignore.
Right so that's three (including downing) players that wouldn't start in a top team.I can understand Henderson but Sterling would be a starter/regular in any team in this league.nobody expects fourth, winning cups etc at this stage.There has not been a winning run in 13+ games. He might be a good personality to be friends without this is a result based business there is no guarantees of buying new players, keeping hold of our star players, and there is no guarantee of teams above us going on a poor run.we are responsible for our form not others so let's not hide from that.its not knee- jerk and no one has asked for Rodgers to be sacked on this board.
Then, why do you care so much that he takes responsibility? If you're saying he's not perfect, then you're right. He's not. But, that's not really any kind of revelation. BR will make mistakes, and he has. Every manager does. But, if you're asking wether he should be labeled as an underachiever with this group, then he shouldn't. No other manager would have more points with this group and be trying to play a proactive, possession-based, attacking philosophy. No one else. So, it's rather like listening to someone complain that snow is cold. Rafa was fired because the league position and the ground swell of anti-Benitez fan-sentiment made it an easy excuse for Gillicks to shit-can him. If he had finished 4th that year, he'd never have been fired.
It depends. No reinforcements in January 8th - 10th would be a good result in line with my expectations. Meaningful reinforcements in January (a good striker, for instance) 6th - 8th, maybe even 5th (too much to wish for?).
Finishing above everyone bar Man U, Man City, Arsenal, Chelsea and Spurs would be good work. Last season was deemed not good enough, so we need to improve on that pts tally. Rodgers was hired in the expectation that he would do good work at LFC. So that is what I expect -him to get the team punching above their weight. However we have not even been in the Top half of the Table this season and are 6 pts worse off than this time last season. We are almost certainly going to have worse Cup runs than last season, unless we win the FA Cup. Also it would be nice to actually have some victories against some decent teams this season. We are playing nicer football than under Hodgson but getting worse results! Rodgers needs to win 4 out of the next 7 Prem matches or he will have a lower win percentage than Hodgson when he was sacked! I certainly did not find Hodgson' performance in the Anfield hotseat as good enough, and I am not going to accept even lower standards than that. Rodgers currently has the lowest win percentage in the league of any LFC manager in our entire history (more than 120 years)! OK the sample is a very small number of games, so this win percentage can change significantly over a handful of games, but my point is that it HAS to change. The current win rate is not acceptable. There is nothing wrong with pointing this out rather than simply ignoring it and assuming things will improve.
I honestly get where you are coming from -- but despite this being a results business and that is the number one priority, Rodgers is getting more of a pass than Hodgson because of the playing style. The calls from the fans about Hodgson were more about the style of play than the actual results. Granted results played a part too, but you cannot ignore the playing style factor in all of this.
Obviously it is like chalk and cheese when actually watching the football matches under the two managers. I am just looking at the stats for Prem era (post 1992) and it is concerning me. We were 7 pts better off last season at this point and we were in 6th place. Under Hodgson we were also on 16pts from the first 13 games and also in 11th place. We were also hoping things would improve over the next 6 weeks but they didn't they got worse. Hodgson's mark upon being sacked was 25 pts from 20 games. The season Rafa got sacked 09/10 we were on 20pts from 13 games. The season Roy Evans was released (as co-Manager with Houllier) we had the same total of 16pts from 13 games. It was deemed unnaceptable and a great servant to the club, Evans was let go in Nov 1998. In 1998 and 2010 both Houllier and Hodgson won their 14th League games, so unless Rodgers wins at Spurs, this will officially be our lowest total after 14 games since the Prem era started. That's the context for my concern. The playing style can only deflect criticism so far when the results are so bad. Frankly I am surprised the media have not noticed this yet.
Just throwing this out there. Anyone who's even remotely leaning towards THINKING about POTENTIALLY sacking Rodgers simply doesn't understand that we're going to have this same rocky learning process every time we get a new manager. We'll just be resetting the process over and over and over again and never improve. People don't get this, and I don't have any idea why.
So maybe I was a bit punch-drunk after a 12hr drive back home from NC yesterday, but I actually thought the game was a well-played one, just that the problem was that both sides were possession-oriented offenses and it kind of see-sawed back and forth in terms of which team was able to assert dominance on the ball and therefore string enough passes together to break down the other side. By and large, I thought Liverpool did a much better job of this for long stretches of the game, even in the second half, and always looked more dangerous. We just didn't manage to put away a couple of obvious chances, and had a legitimate goal called back. I frankly didn't get the comments from Macca and what's-is-name about it being a disappointment towards the end, other than they were hoping like we all were for some goals. As an aside, I actually like these two commentators and generally find them to be fair, so usually leave the volume on when watching games when they are doing the color commentary. With regard to the discussion about BR and whether he's been a success or not... to me the amazing thing is how despite some of the amazing frustrations (god-awful start, almost no striking options because of a screwed transfer window, and an overly-stingy set of owners) you still see most of the players out on the field pulling in the same direction. To me at least, BR and his backroom staff are doing a just incredible job of man management this season. I mean, he's playing Glenn on the wrong side of the field, has moved Enrique into a LM position(which actually works!), swapped Downing back to LB, has had to play with three different RB (even occasionally Hendo there...) due to injuries and successfully slotted in Wisdom who had like ZERO first team experience prior to being thrust into the fire this season. He has no legitimate striker other than Suarez, who BTW is on fire this season despite all attempts by the media and certain other managers to demonize him (and in the last couple of matches Suarez has actually started to tone down some of his complaining), and has had a great deal of success integrating Suso, Sterling and Shelvey into regular starters with active roles in some sort of cobbled together attack. All of this is done with some great talent, but I'll take both sides of the discussion regarding the level of talent present at Liverpool at the moment. I think we have six to eight amazingly talented individual players (e.g. Suarez, Gerrard, Agger, Reina, Lucas, to name others), but that largely these players are pieces that were left over after H&G started raiding the team for cash, one or two of Benitez's self-inflicted wounds (Xabi), defections (Torres), and two short-term managers chosen with a lack of foresight. Please don't think I'm denigrating KK. I'm not, it's pretty clear he did fairly well for the greater part of a season--the problem was that this was the last half of his first season, and the first half of his second... But if he really was an "interim" manager, why spend almost 100 million pounds on signings that are going to end up square-pegs filling round holes in the management system of your next hire? So I give a lot of credit to BR for getting what he has out of this odd collection of bed knobs, broomsticks, and a few pieces of pocket lint that he's had to cobble together into a cohesive team this season. I just hope and pray that our current owners will provide the sort of sustained monetary support it will take to build a team (and we will have to build it, I don't think we can get to the top four anymore simply by developing players) of the quality that we all expect from Liverpool.
Can we at least admit that Hodgson was sacked for grossly under performing with a better lot of players than we have now? (at least more seasoned players?). Torres Kuyt Maxi Meireles I hesitate to include Babel and N'Gog in the discussion. If we had Maxi and Kuyt on this squad. Guaranteed that we would have more points. How many? Who knows. But the two of them scrounged up 23 goals between them that season, most afterTorres was shipped. We don't have that type of depth. We are relying on these players to create and score goals; Sterling, Shelvey, Assaidi, Suso, (Sahin), Henderson, Borini. How many Premier League goals between them? This is a major work in progress people. I like the direction and firmly believe that we will be better for it. When Gerrard appears the odd man out, it's a sea change.
So basically 6th, something thats completely realistic with more than half of the season to go. But all that aside, sometimes to rebuild you have to destroy and before we can compete with the top we have to restructure and rebuild everything that has been torn down over the years. So maybe it means that we have to accept poor results in the short term for the long term benefit, which is a normal trajectory of a team in transition to begin. Isn't that why BR was also brought in too? To make us a competent football club again with an actual identity and foundation? Things like that do not happen in one season I'm afraid. Well the circumstances were different no? I understand its Liverpool and the standards don't change just because a new guy is in charge but changing circumstances do necessitate new expectations if it involves an actual long term plan and philosophy. That's the way I feel about it anyways and I'm saying this because I've seen similar narratives at other clubs. Well yes, obviously if things become stagnant then it's a problem but what is the exact timeframe of that exactly?
From 365 stats: * Liverpool have picked up just four points from a possible 21 v top-half sides this season. * Santi Cazorla (39) is the only PL midfielder to have created more chances than Steven Gerrard (36) this season. * Liverpool attempted 52 long balls v Swansea - one more than Stoke v Fulham.
I must say that was quite a distinct feature in this game. Is it a sign of desperation or an actual decisive pass one can argue over but we do not have the height/pace to resort to this.
If only we had Andy Carroll who has won more aerial duels per game than any other player in the Prem.
How dare you question the judgement of BR in loaning him out to a team that is our direct competitor at the moment?
Ok you all need to understand that we have to be patient. This system is complex and will take a long time to get players performing naturally in this system. Plus we have a very limited squad. It seems that someone got rid of all the strikers save one and thus we are limited in goal scoring. We are playing better looking football but we are unable to beat anyone. But we have proven hard to beat. So while it looks better we are getting the results that one would expect from Hodgson. Enough draws and a few wins so we won't get relegated. This simply has to change or it won't be a matter of recruiting new players but a unmanageable job to keep the good ones from leaving. But again I think the owners picked BR and he deserves a two full year period to see what he can do. That's what I thought Kenny deserved and was denied. I don't want that to happen to BR for the sake of the club
I also think it's too often overlooked that Hodgson and Dalglish had Lucas up until this point in the season during their time as manager. Lucas was injured mid to late November last season, and that's when our form took a dip that we haven't recovered from. Hodgson's style had no chance even with Lucas. Yes, say what you will about relying on one player, making excuses about injury, learning to play without that player, but the fact is we are a drastically better team (in terms of point output) with a healthy Lucas on the pitch. I'm not saying that everything will change when Lucas returns this season. However, looking at the past couple seasons, I think it's hard to say Rodgers would be doing worse than Hodgson or Dalglish at this point if he had the Lucas that they had. I understand it's all about progress, but the man has to work with what he has. I actually think it's a very talented squad, but the experience factor is a huge negative, and we're hurting in two critical areas of the pitch - the "Lucas" player and another goalscorer.
He's undroppable for West Ham playing the lone/loan target man giving the three behind him the space they need to attack. He might not score a lot but he does allow others to score, amazingly last season in the league we scored more goals per minute with Carroll on the pitch than we did with Suarez.