Still Crazy After All These Years: Creationists Keep Trying

Discussion in 'Spirituality & Religion' started by Dyvel, Dec 21, 2010.

  1. Ombak

    Ombak Moderator
    Staff Member

    Flamengo
    Apr 19, 1999
    Irvine, CA
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    Another issue that comes up with this nonsense is "knowing" things in the first place. There is no such thing as absolute certainty but science does require that, science only requires that you test and refine your theories and evolution is about as good as it gets. It's either hypocritical or just plain ignorant to accept things like gravity and reject evolution and in royal's case I don't think it's just ignorance.
     
  2. benztown

    benztown Member+

    Jun 24, 2005
    Club:
    VfB Stuttgart
    Yes, it is indeed very frustrating when various definitions of the same word are conflated all the time.
    When a YEC says "you don't know what happened", then in this specific instance he's using "knowledge" as in "absolute, 100% knowledge", a standard that cannot be met by anything and is hence completely useless in a discussion like this.

    Fact of the matter is, to the degree that we can know anything, we know that Darwinian evolution is true.
     
  3. Pathogen

    Pathogen Member

    Jul 19, 2004
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    I saw this a lot with Mormons, too. It takes a pretty brave soul to turn against everything they've been taught once they've been enlightened by real history. I can most certainly understand why they avoid exposing themselves to those contradictions.
     
  4. Pathogen

    Pathogen Member

    Jul 19, 2004
    Like you care.
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    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYQjATp0-a8"]YouTube - Quad damage[/ame]

    I commend your effort, though.
     
  5. wallacegrommit

    Sep 19, 2005
    White people are genetic mutants.
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/15/AR2005121501728.html
    Lance Armstrong has a rare genetic mutation that actually helps him be a better cyclist.
    http://www.edb.utexas.edu/coyle/armstrong.php
     
  6. Dyvel

    Dyvel Member+

    Jul 24, 1999
    The dog end of a day gone by
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  7. StiltonFC

    StiltonFC He said to only look up -- Guster

    Mar 18, 2007
    SoCal
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    the reason that Dawkins' video is so far out of bounds as far as science is concerned is that he is only talking about the anatomy angle.

    i especially like that the eyeball had veins. nice touch.

    what he didn't address, and couldn't because there is no basis for such a position, is how the physiology developed. how did the nervous system develop such that the information gathered by the anatomical apparatus was translated into a meaningful something?
     
  8. Pathogen

    Pathogen Member

    Jul 19, 2004
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    Can I just spare us all some time and cut the shit? You're not interested. You're not. So don't act like you're here looking for answers to your questions that don't lead to "God did it". You're embarrassing yourself and wasting our f**king time.
     
  9. benztown

    benztown Member+

    Jun 24, 2005
    Club:
    VfB Stuttgart
    So at least we're making some progress. I take it then that you accept the reality that half an eye is indeed better than no eye and that the eye didn't have to pop into existence fully formed, but that a gradual process is possible. Now it's only about how that could have happened.

    And you have what background exactly to make such a claim? How do your academic studies on biology stack up against those of Dawkins? Or any other evolutionary biologist who spent his life researching this stuff and who apparently make claims that are unfounded?

    The thing is, there's plenty of evidence, it's just that you're unaware of it.

    Short answer: random mutation coupled with natural selection.
    Long answer: Go to a college and study this stuff. Seriously, the thing about science in general is that it's hard. If you want to go into that much detail, no 15 minute video can help you there. What you need then is a couple of years of intense course work. You can't just project your own ignorance on everybody else.

    But I'm still here to help. If you want a glimpse of what is known, you can start here:
    http://www.sciencemag.org/content/325/5936/24.summary
    Of course a magazine like 'Science' charges money for access, but this article is actually rather easy to understand. Of course there are still a lot of open questions regarding the origin of the nervous system, but that's only too natural, given that we're talking about events that are 600 million years in the past.
    But what's also obvious is that the argument is merely about which exact path evolution has taken. The occurrence of the nervous system itself is no riddle at all, but instead easily explained by evolution.

    And here are some more (free) articles for you to start getting into it:
    http://scienceblogs.com/neurophilosophy/2009/07/evolutionary_origins_of_the_nervous_system.php
    http://notexactlyrocketscience.word...es-provide-clues-to-origin-of-nervous-system/

    And some scientific papers:
    http://www.imbb.forth.gr/people/poirazi/journal-club/2005-06/Coghlan12-10-05.pdf
    http://www.ijdb.ehu.es/web/contents.php?vol=47&issue=7-8&doi=14756331

    Of course, should you want to learn about this in depth, you still need to go to a university...
     
  10. StiltonFC

    StiltonFC He said to only look up -- Guster

    Mar 18, 2007
    SoCal
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    The idea that explaining the anatomy ( how it might have developed ) does anything to debunk an intelligent design model is just wrong.

    The physiology of vision in humans is intensely complex. Even if the physical structure of the eye did evolve, and we don't know that it did, just that some people think it could, that is only one half of the problem.

    Then you have to connect the anatomical structure to the central nervous system. There has to be a process to transmit the image to the brain so that the brain can do something with the image, make sense of it in some fashion.

    There are several critical steps in the process. They have to occur in a sequence that is about 8 steps long. Most of the steps involve chemical changes. The chemicals involved aren't substances that occur throughout the body. They are specific to the vision system. The vertebrate transduction cascade is what allows creatures with spines to see.

    So when Dawkins spun his little yarn about the evolution of the eye, he was lying. He knew he was lying. He made people think that all vision requires is the anatomy. He left out the part about the physiology.
     
  11. It's called FOOTBALL

    LMX Clubs
    Mexico
    May 4, 2009
    Chitown
    It was spot on. A kid wants to hold on to his belief in Santa because it makes him feel better. Xmas was way funner when we all thought Santa existed. But we accept that he doesn't, and deal with xmases that aren't as great as they were in our early childhood. Same with wrestling, kids get a lot more emotional payoff when they think Hulk Hogan is actually fighting the forces of evil. When they find out he isn't, they'll still watch, but it can't rile up emotions like before.

    Creationists want to feel good about themselves, they want to feel special. That's why they hold on to their little beliefs. It's pretty sad that they can't accept the truth of evolution. That shows how mentally weak they are.
     
  12. benztown

    benztown Member+

    Jun 24, 2005
    Club:
    VfB Stuttgart
    Actually, it does, because the entire argument of the creationists is: "I don't know how else it could have happened."

    Well, now you do know.
    To the degree that we can know anything, we do know that the eye evolved. Evolution is just as certain as that the sun will rise again tomorrow.
    Great, one half solved then.
    Whatever steps are necessary, they're all on accordance with evolution.

    He wasn't lying at all, he was explaining the evolution of the physiology. The evolution of the neurology is a different matter, but nothing that can't be studied.
    So the only person who's lying is you and you know it. All your mistakes have been pointed out to you before, so you can't even defend yourself by claiming ignorance any more.

    Pathogen is right, you are making a fool of yourself.
     
  13. Pathogen

    Pathogen Member

    Jul 19, 2004
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    How are these kids not indoctrinated?

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IguW9xHd2qo"]YouTube - Crazy Creationism in a High School Classroom[/ame]
     
    1 person likes this.
  14. wallacegrommit

    Sep 19, 2005
    Belief in a god doesn't make a person a creationist. All you have demonstrated is how mentally weak you are.
     
  15. It's called FOOTBALL

    LMX Clubs
    Mexico
    May 4, 2009
    Chitown
    Who said that belief in a god makes a person a creationist???

    Reading comprehension... look into it.
     
  16. benztown

    benztown Member+

    Jun 24, 2005
    Club:
    VfB Stuttgart
    1 person likes this.
  17. Pønch

    Pønch Saprissista

    Aug 23, 2006
    Donde siempre
  18. Gordon EF

    Gordon EF Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jan 15, 2004
    Edinburgh
  19. benztown

    benztown Member+

    Jun 24, 2005
    Club:
    VfB Stuttgart
    When I see something like this, I really wonder what the prerequisite for becoming a (biology) teacher is in the US. This guy can't possibly have studied biology, otherwise he'd know better than that.

    You really have to feel sorry for the kids though. It's not their fault that they're being taught a bunch of horse sh*t...
     
  20. Dyvel

    Dyvel Member+

    Jul 24, 1999
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  21. ceezmad

    ceezmad Member+

    Mar 4, 2010
    Chicago
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    http://www.economist.com/node/18111764

    The first rule of natural selection is: “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.”

    This is going to end up in a creationist website to deny evolution, this is ken Hovens wet dream.
     
  22. Pathogen

    Pathogen Member

    Jul 19, 2004
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    Hovens should just work on staying out of prison.

    But this is hardly a strong case for anti-evolutionists. And no knock on the Economists, but they're not exactly Nature or some other science publication. So I'll take their opinion on this development with a grain of salt.
     
  23. argentine soccer fan

    Staff Member

    Jan 18, 2001
    San Francisco Bay Area
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
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    Of course, there is also the alternative theory that Satan is confusing the minds of the unbelievers and blinding them to the truth.
     
  24. YankHibee

    YankHibee Member+

    Mar 28, 2005
    indianapolis
    Little girl in the red reminds me of the dumb churchies that would get trains run on them freshman year of college.
     
  25. Ombak

    Ombak Moderator
    Staff Member

    Flamengo
    Apr 19, 1999
    Irvine, CA
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Actually, even if you make that assumption benztown's statement still holds true: to the degree that we can know anything we know that evolution is true.

    And I mean that in all seriousness, even if your post is somewhat tongue-in-cheek, because the idea that our sense are fooling us is an old one but one that has often been dealt with.
     

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