Stand Your Ground: George Zimmerman Charged

Re: Stand Your Ground

Based on the 911 tapes, this should be a slam dunk. He was told not to proceed any further, but he had a gun and was on a citizens patrol. He was damn near a sheriff.

Re: Stand Your Ground

I havent seen comment on the, to me, most important condemning factor. This guy was neighborhood watch for a gated community, there to protect the residents. the kid he shot lived there! This asshole had no business even looking at the kid twice. Why did he call 911 in the first place? Why didnt he know who lived there and not? The answer is simple and expressed by an old Onion headline.

"There is a Negro on your porch"

Re: Stand Your Ground

Wasn't Virginia considering a similar law this session?

Re: Stand Your Ground

Are you sure he lived there? I've only heard that he was at his father/step-mother's place.

And from what I saw, yes it was private, but it looked more like an apartment/town house type complex, not really a 'gated' community.

You are giving too much credit to Neighborhood Watch, as if they are true law enforcement. I would imagine Neighborhood Watches don't encourage the carrying/use of firearms. This is likely a guy who has been turned down by the police academies on several occasions.

Re: Stand Your Ground

it baffles me that a neighborhood watch person could actually be armed, and think that he can use that gun to shoot an unarmed human being that posed no threat to him. I always thought of neighborhood watch people as "citizens on patrol" from the old Police Academy movie. arm them with a walkie-talkie and send them on their way!

Re: Stand Your Ground

It is difficult to determine whether the law had direct application to this situation, because none of the news accounts I've seen explain the shooter's account of the events. One article I read described a witness who saw the two wrestling (it sounded like the victim may have been on top and taking it to the other guy), then goes to call the police and hears the gun shot while on the call. I'm not surprised charges weren't filed immediately against the shooter, because without another witness or some type of forensic evidence to contradict the guy's version of the facts, it would be difficult to prove that the shooting wasn't justified.

Re: Stand Your Ground

Again, once the justice dept gets in, coupled with the 911 calls by Zimmerman (and the response from 911 operators), he had no business confronting him whether the victim was going to perform a criminal act or not.

Re: Stand Your Ground

The 911 call doesn't mean self defense can't be established. What people think is right or justified and what the law says is not the same thing. What people speculate happened and what the prosecutor can prove in court is not the same thing.

Re: Stand Your Ground

There are a hundred Cartmen-Cops with hardons for authoritah for every Richard Jewel, who actually was a hero.

Re: Stand Your Ground

Self-Defense? Zimmerman was pursuing Martin. Zimmerman was originally in a vehicle and presumably could have just driven away.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/16/trayvon-martin-911-audio-_n_1354909.html?ref=topbar

"This guy looks like he's up to no good, or he's on drugs or something," Zimmerman tells the 911 operator. "He's just staring, looking at all the houses. Now he's coming toward me. He's got his hand in his waistband. Something's wrong with him."

Zimmerman described Martin as wearing a hoodie and sweatpants or jeans. He continues: "He's coming to check me out. He's got something in his hands. I don't know what his deal is. Can we get an officer over here?"

"These assholes always get away," he says to the operator. Zimmerman is then heard giving directions to the dispatcher. "Shit, he's running," Zimmerman says.

"Are you following him?" the dispatcher asks.

"Yes," Zimmerman responds.

"We don't need you to do that," the dispatcher says.

Re: Stand Your Ground

The case wasn't even investigated because of Stand Your Ground. According to the law, the burden of proof is on the police to establish that the assailant didn't feel threatened. If the assailant can believably claim that he was in danger, then it's an open-and-shut case.

I'm not a huge fan of the Second Amendment, but it's part of life in America, I get it. And as long as it's part of the Constitution, I have no problem with law abiding citizens carrying firearm to defend themselves. But I think it's a separate issue from the ability to pursue someone who seems suspicious and gun him down without proving imminent danger. That's scary shit, and an act that's not protected by the Second Amendment.

Re: Stand Your Ground

Right. In civilized society (i.e., not Florida), citizens have a duty to retreat. Pursuing a teenager is the very opposite of retreating.

Re: Stand Your Ground

As our resident badge, I'd like to hear JBJake's take on this.

From what I understand, this guy broke just about every rule that police establish for Neighborhood Watches:

1. Don't carry a firearm.
2. Don't patrol alone.
3. Don't pursue the suspect.
4. Don't engage the suspect.

Hell, he didn't even have a valid reason to suspect Martin of anything. Other than "walking while black".

Re: Stand Your Ground

The incident wasn't, but the inaction by the local police was a byproduct of SYG. The prosecutors couldn't possibly prove that Zimmerman didn't feel threatened, so why bother?

The NRA is relevant to the extent that the organization lobbied for the law. Both the incident and SYG are separate issues from the right to carry, but that's exactly why we should discuss NRA support for the law. It's one thing to advocate for the right to bear arms. It's whole another to support vigilantism.

Re: Stand Your Ground

What a insanely stupid law. Quick question for "conservatives.". I thought conservatives only wanted laws to address specific, identifiable problems? We don't use government to fix what isn't broke, right?

What on earth was wrong with our existing self defense laws? Was there some rash of good, law abiding people going to jail for simply defending themselves, and I missed it? Is there some inherent problem with the concept that you need to walk away when that option is available and won't put you in any danger?

It's not just this. You are passing laws that we don't need and that do not address existing problems. We have very little voter fraud in this country and what fraud we do have is not addressed by producing an ID. So why the new laws where the government requires or mandates something where there is no problem to address?

Of course this action that fails to address a specific problem ends up with a bunch of dead people.

Re: Stand Your Ground

I'm reporting what news articles say witnesses claim to have seen.

http://www.wesh.com/r/30692415/detail.html

This is not the point in time when legally you would evaluate the claim of self defense.

Again, this is not legally correct. It doesn't matter whether Zimmerman was in fear when he got out of the car. That's not the point in time that is important. What likely matters is whether there was a fight and whether Zimmerman started the fight. Just because you confront someone doesn't mean you can't defend yourself if they attack you.

Re: Stand Your Ground

ABC revealed today that Trayvon was on the phone with a female friend when cornered by Zimmerman.


" A 17-year-old boy whose death has sparked national outrage fearfully told a friend over the phone moments before he was shot and killed that he was being followed, ABC News reported Tuesday.
"He said this man was watching him, so he put his hoodie on. He said he lost the man," the female friend of Trayvon Martin, who was shot to death on Feb. 26 in Twin Lakes, Fla., told ABC. "I asked Trayvon to run, and he said he was going to walk fast. I told him to run, but he said he was not going to run.

Although Martin initially told his friend he wasn't going to run, he eventually did, she said, but the stranger managed to corner him.
"Trayvon said, 'What, are you following me for,' and the man said, 'What are you doing here.' Next thing I hear is somebody pushing, and somebody pushed Trayvon because the head set just fell. I called him again and he didn't answer the phone."
After that, the line went dead, she said. According to ABC News, other than screams on 911 calls as Martin and Zimmerman scuffled, those were the last words Martin said."


As we are getting more details about that tragedy, the more outraged I become. Just sickening. One (of many) shocking part is that the Sanford PD had the kid's cell phone with them for 3 days. They never bothered to check the call log. They would have found that he was on the phone when attacked by Zimmerman and followed accordingly. They would also have noticed the numerous missed calls from a number identified as " Dad", following the horrific event. To say that they botched the investigation is too kind to them.
Finally the Feds are getting involved. Hopefully, they will nail Zimmerman and bring him to justice.

Re: Stand Your Ground

Speculation: Z approached the kid who responded with something along the lines of "F you I live here" and Z didnt like being disrespected because he is the man with the pseudo-badge and the gun: Speculation