Stand Your Ground: George Zimmerman Charged

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by CHICO13, Mar 20, 2012.

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  1. CHICO13

    CHICO13 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Oct 4, 2001
    SECTION 135
    Club:
    The Strongest La Paz
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    Hard to believe this hasn't been discussed here yet but here goes. The fact that a black teen got shot and killed by a white man in the deep south is not really news. The cops themselves have done it in this particular county.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin

    What angers me is that the NRA fought for the Stand Your Ground law over the objections of law enforcement.

    http://www.tampabay.com/opinion/editorials/article1220845.ece

    How and when will there ever be a counterpoint to their massive lobbying in Washington? This law has done nothing but essentially legalize murder. My only hope is that Zimmerman goes down on a Hate crime indictment and spends the next 30 or 40 years as a guest of the state.
     
    1 person likes this.
  2. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: Stand Your Ground

    Agreed--there really needs to be an alternative to the NRA for gun owners and people who are sincerely interested in the 2nd Amendment, instead of using it as an excuse to arm right-wing paramilitaries and paranoid racists to the teeth.

    It never ceases to amaze me how often the NRA and the gun lobby will go up against law enforcement. Remember "cop killer" ammo? :mad:
     
  3. cleansheetbsc

    cleansheetbsc Member+

    Mar 17, 2004
    Club:
    --other--
    Re: Stand Your Ground

    Based on the 911 tapes, this should be a slam dunk. He was told not to proceed any further, but he had a gun and was on a citizens patrol. He was damn near a sheriff.
     
  4. HerthaBerwyn

    HerthaBerwyn Member+

    May 24, 2003
    Chicago
    Re: Stand Your Ground

    I havent seen comment on the, to me, most important condemning factor. This guy was neighborhood watch for a gated community, there to protect the residents. the kid he shot lived there! This asshole had no business even looking at the kid twice. Why did he call 911 in the first place? Why didnt he know who lived there and not? The answer is simple and expressed by an old Onion headline.

    "There is a Negro on your porch"
     
  5. Funkfoot

    Funkfoot Member+

    May 18, 2002
    New Orleans, LA
    Re: Stand Your Ground

    Wasn't Virginia considering a similar law this session?
     
  6. CHICO13

    CHICO13 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Oct 4, 2001
    SECTION 135
    Club:
    The Strongest La Paz
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    Re: Stand Your Ground

    He's called 911 over 50 times in the past! And there is no such thing as a slam dunk in the South.
     
  7. cleansheetbsc

    cleansheetbsc Member+

    Mar 17, 2004
    Club:
    --other--
    Re: Stand Your Ground

    Are you sure he lived there? I've only heard that he was at his father/step-mother's place.

    And from what I saw, yes it was private, but it looked more like an apartment/town house type complex, not really a 'gated' community.

    You are giving too much credit to Neighborhood Watch, as if they are true law enforcement. I would imagine Neighborhood Watches don't encourage the carrying/use of firearms. This is likely a guy who has been turned down by the police academies on several occasions.
     
  8. minerva

    minerva Member+

    Apr 20, 2009
    Denver, CO
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: Stand Your Ground

    it baffles me that a neighborhood watch person could actually be armed, and think that he can use that gun to shoot an unarmed human being that posed no threat to him. I always thought of neighborhood watch people as "citizens on patrol" from the old Police Academy movie. arm them with a walkie-talkie and send them on their way!
     
  9. CHICO13

    CHICO13 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Oct 4, 2001
    SECTION 135
    Club:
    The Strongest La Paz
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    Re: Stand Your Ground

    It's the stupid asinine law that enables douchebags to walk around packed. Read the link above to see how shootings like this have quadrupled since its inception.
     
  10. wallacegrommit

    Sep 19, 2005
    Re: Stand Your Ground

    It is difficult to determine whether the law had direct application to this situation, because none of the news accounts I've seen explain the shooter's account of the events. One article I read described a witness who saw the two wrestling (it sounded like the victim may have been on top and taking it to the other guy), then goes to call the police and hears the gun shot while on the call. I'm not surprised charges weren't filed immediately against the shooter, because without another witness or some type of forensic evidence to contradict the guy's version of the facts, it would be difficult to prove that the shooting wasn't justified.
     
  11. cleansheetbsc

    cleansheetbsc Member+

    Mar 17, 2004
    Club:
    --other--
    Re: Stand Your Ground

    Again, once the justice dept gets in, coupled with the 911 calls by Zimmerman (and the response from 911 operators), he had no business confronting him whether the victim was going to perform a criminal act or not.
     
  12. wallacegrommit

    Sep 19, 2005
    Re: Stand Your Ground

    The 911 call doesn't mean self defense can't be established. What people think is right or justified and what the law says is not the same thing. What people speculate happened and what the prosecutor can prove in court is not the same thing.
     
    Jaweirdo repped this.
  13. CHICO13

    CHICO13 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Oct 4, 2001
    SECTION 135
    Club:
    The Strongest La Paz
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    Re: Stand Your Ground

    The victim was 5'6 140, the shooter was 6'1 220 and you can hear the kid screaming in the 911 call until you hear the gunshot and then it goes quiet.
     
  14. HerthaBerwyn

    HerthaBerwyn Member+

    May 24, 2003
    Chicago
    Re: Stand Your Ground

    There are a hundred Cartmen-Cops with hardons for authoritah for every Richard Jewel, who actually was a hero.
     
  15. cleansheetbsc

    cleansheetbsc Member+

    Mar 17, 2004
    Club:
    --other--
    Re: Stand Your Ground

    Self-Defense? Zimmerman was pursuing Martin. Zimmerman was originally in a vehicle and presumably could have just driven away.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/16/trayvon-martin-911-audio-_n_1354909.html?ref=topbar

    "This guy looks like he's up to no good, or he's on drugs or something," Zimmerman tells the 911 operator. "He's just staring, looking at all the houses. Now he's coming toward me. He's got his hand in his waistband. Something's wrong with him."

    Zimmerman described Martin as wearing a hoodie and sweatpants or jeans. He continues: "He's coming to check me out. He's got something in his hands. I don't know what his deal is. Can we get an officer over here?"

    "These assholes always get away," he says to the operator. Zimmerman is then heard giving directions to the dispatcher. "Shit, he's running," Zimmerman says.

    "Are you following him?" the dispatcher asks.

    "Yes," Zimmerman responds.

    "We don't need you to do that," the dispatcher says.
     
  16. That Phat Hat

    That Phat Hat Member+

    Nov 14, 2002
    Just Barely Outside the Beltway
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Japan
    Re: Stand Your Ground

    The case wasn't even investigated because of Stand Your Ground. According to the law, the burden of proof is on the police to establish that the assailant didn't feel threatened. If the assailant can believably claim that he was in danger, then it's an open-and-shut case.

    I'm not a huge fan of the Second Amendment, but it's part of life in America, I get it. And as long as it's part of the Constitution, I have no problem with law abiding citizens carrying firearm to defend themselves. But I think it's a separate issue from the ability to pursue someone who seems suspicious and gun him down without proving imminent danger. That's scary shit, and an act that's not protected by the Second Amendment.
     
  17. That Phat Hat

    That Phat Hat Member+

    Nov 14, 2002
    Just Barely Outside the Beltway
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Japan
    Re: Stand Your Ground

    Right. In civilized society (i.e., not Florida), citizens have a duty to retreat. Pursuing a teenager is the very opposite of retreating.
     
  18. Moishe

    Moishe Moderator
    Staff Member

    Boca Juniors
    Argentina
    Mar 6, 2005
    Here there and everywhere.
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Re: Stand Your Ground

    It's already been widely reported that George Zimmerman is multi-racial so why did you chose to only mention the white part of his heritage? Why not the fact he's also Hispanic (Puerto Rican I think) or does it not provide for as much sensationalism? Maybe you couldn't be bothered to read any one of the several articles in it's entirety.....who knows.

    The NRA really didn't have to fight that hard and while some LEO did in fact object, many didn't as well. It's also worth noting that Stand Your Ground in of itself actually isn't a in as much as it's a clause within the Castle Doctrine. Also worth pointing out is that of our 50 states, less than 20 allow for the Stand Your Ground clause and of those, less than half are in what is generally known as southern states.

    I have my CHL though I rarely carry but one thing that my instructors (retired LEO and retired SOF) kept reiterating throughout the course was that if at any point you don't feel right about your surroundings go the other way and keep going until you feel better. If you are pursued, LEO hasn't responded to your 911 call (also one of the first things we were taught to do) and your simply have no place left to run or hide then and only then does Stand Your Ground become an option and that option should only be enacted if you still can't talk your way to safety.

    What happened to the Martin kid wasn't a byproduct of the SYG clause, it was simply a paranoid racist with a small dick chasing down a kid with skittles and Arizona tea and murdering him and I believe that with the Feds involved we stand a better chance of justice being served.

    Let me ask you an honest question? If George Zimmerman had been any other thug carrying a weapon illegally (i.e. unregistered / unlicensed) would you have brought up the NRA or the firearms laws? In the grand scheme of things most violent crimes are perpetrated by those with weapons obtained illegally and the numbers back that up. I have no issue with your energy on the matter aside from I believe it's misguided.

    For the record I support stricter CHL requirements. Eight to 12 hours of classroom and paper target shooting never ever prepare you for reality. In my opinion the shooting requirements are a joke. Focus on raising the passing standard and course requirements for a CHL, hell even tighter requirements to purchase. Out and out gun control though? Too many firearms in circulation in this country for that to EVER be an option.

    So once again it's go after the group in which it's supporters are generally law abiding citizens adhering to the laws in place irrelevant to the reality that they aren't the ones committing the overwhelming majority of violent and gun crimes. Like I said, misguided.

    I'm not sure an alternative to the NRA would be the answer. There is a younger group of members that are seeing things in a more common sense way. As we grow and the older generation fades I think you'll see some changes. Younger generation also doesn't have the financial resources of the good old boy network.

    You do remember why "cop killer ammo" was so evil right? It was because it was Teflon coated and because of that it could penetrate body armor. Turned out to be bullshit and it was found that the Teflon had nothing to do with the bullets ability to penetrate armor. It was all in how the bullets were manufactured. In part because of that many bullets today are made of softer lead which is good in a practical home defense scenario. G-d forbid you miss your target you at least wont have to worry much about the round punching through the wall. Not a guarantee but what in life is?

    I see it as a slam dunk as well. Granted the instruction to not approach has no legal bearing, the self defense excuse goes out the window the minute you approach what you are claim to be what who or what you fear. He just wanted to know what it felt like to pull the trigger ********ing douche bag.
     
  19. tomwilhelm

    tomwilhelm Member+

    Dec 14, 2005
    Boston, MA, USA
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: Stand Your Ground

    As our resident badge, I'd like to hear JBJake's take on this.

    From what I understand, this guy broke just about every rule that police establish for Neighborhood Watches:

    1. Don't carry a firearm.
    2. Don't patrol alone.
    3. Don't pursue the suspect.
    4. Don't engage the suspect.

    Hell, he didn't even have a valid reason to suspect Martin of anything. Other than "walking while black".
     
  20. That Phat Hat

    That Phat Hat Member+

    Nov 14, 2002
    Just Barely Outside the Beltway
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Japan
    Re: Stand Your Ground

    The incident wasn't, but the inaction by the local police was a byproduct of SYG. The prosecutors couldn't possibly prove that Zimmerman didn't feel threatened, so why bother?
    The NRA is relevant to the extent that the organization lobbied for the law. Both the incident and SYG are separate issues from the right to carry, but that's exactly why we should discuss NRA support for the law. It's one thing to advocate for the right to bear arms. It's whole another to support vigilantism.
     
  21. Moishe

    Moishe Moderator
    Staff Member

    Boca Juniors
    Argentina
    Mar 6, 2005
    Here there and everywhere.
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Re: Stand Your Ground

    I actually think it's pretty cut and dry. Once Zimmerman went after the Martin kid he pretty much by virtue of pursuit became the aggressor. To me feeling threatened is sacrificed at that point. I believe the Sanford Police looked for the easy way out and it's going to cost them.

    They may be separate issues but they will always be intertwined. The Castle Doctrine in my opinion is pretty straightforward and the SYG was the additional clause that was supposed to govern conceal carry in which little if any of the CD actually covers. As I posted, I prefer more common sense gun laws and even as a vet will always opt for going the other way. I think more CHL instructors need to emphasize this relentlessly.
     
  22. Chris M.

    Chris M. Member+

    Jan 18, 2002
    Chicago
    Re: Stand Your Ground

    What a insanely stupid law. Quick question for "conservatives.". I thought conservatives only wanted laws to address specific, identifiable problems? We don't use government to fix what isn't broke, right?

    What on earth was wrong with our existing self defense laws? Was there some rash of good, law abiding people going to jail for simply defending themselves, and I missed it? Is there some inherent problem with the concept that you need to walk away when that option is available and won't put you in any danger?

    It's not just this. You are passing laws that we don't need and that do not address existing problems. We have very little voter fraud in this country and what fraud we do have is not addressed by producing an ID. So why the new laws where the government requires or mandates something where there is no problem to address?

    Of course this action that fails to address a specific problem ends up with a bunch of dead people.
     
  23. wallacegrommit

    Sep 19, 2005
    Re: Stand Your Ground

    I'm reporting what news articles say witnesses claim to have seen.

    http://www.wesh.com/r/30692415/detail.html
    This is not the point in time when legally you would evaluate the claim of self defense.
    Again, this is not legally correct. It doesn't matter whether Zimmerman was in fear when he got out of the car. That's not the point in time that is important. What likely matters is whether there was a fight and whether Zimmerman started the fight. Just because you confront someone doesn't mean you can't defend yourself if they attack you.
     
  24. charlie15

    charlie15 Member+

    Mar 9, 2000
    Bethesda, Md
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: Stand Your Ground

    ABC revealed today that Trayvon was on the phone with a female friend when cornered by Zimmerman.


    " A 17-year-old boy whose death has sparked national outrage fearfully told a friend over the phone moments before he was shot and killed that he was being followed, ABC News reported Tuesday.
    "He said this man was watching him, so he put his hoodie on. He said he lost the man," the female friend of Trayvon Martin, who was shot to death on Feb. 26 in Twin Lakes, Fla., told ABC. "I asked Trayvon to run, and he said he was going to walk fast. I told him to run, but he said he was not going to run.

    Although Martin initially told his friend he wasn't going to run, he eventually did, she said, but the stranger managed to corner him.
    "Trayvon said, 'What, are you following me for,' and the man said, 'What are you doing here.' Next thing I hear is somebody pushing, and somebody pushed Trayvon because the head set just fell. I called him again and he didn't answer the phone."
    After that, the line went dead, she said. According to ABC News, other than screams on 911 calls as Martin and Zimmerman scuffled, those were the last words Martin said."


    As we are getting more details about that tragedy, the more outraged I become. Just sickening. One (of many) shocking part is that the Sanford PD had the kid's cell phone with them for 3 days. They never bothered to check the call log. They would have found that he was on the phone when attacked by Zimmerman and followed accordingly. They would also have noticed the numerous missed calls from a number identified as " Dad", following the horrific event. To say that they botched the investigation is too kind to them.
    Finally the Feds are getting involved. Hopefully, they will nail Zimmerman and bring him to justice.
     
  25. HerthaBerwyn

    HerthaBerwyn Member+

    May 24, 2003
    Chicago
    Re: Stand Your Ground

    Speculation: Z approached the kid who responded with something along the lines of "F you I live here" and Z didnt like being disrespected because he is the man with the pseudo-badge and the gun: Speculation
     

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