So after six games what have we learned about Klinsmann?

I put Donovan at the same level as Kewell, can't comment on Johnston.

As for Japanese players, they've been all about soccer for YEEARS before the start of the 'j league'. They've been a underground favorite of latin american teams forever. Hell, Japan has a HUGE following of Boca Juniors from their times playing the intercontinental cup over the years.

They love soccer over there, they looked to south america on where to 'copy' and taht is why they produce such good techincally sound players.

Same with Korea.

Soccer didn't just appear there in the 90s. They had a soccer player playing in brasil in the 80s, which at the time can be argued as being one of the best leagues in the world at the time.

No, i was making a point on how he said why Korea gets more respect than USA about their players.

My answer, Korea's league is better then MLS and more techincal. Watch the league, it has a 'south america' feel to it, as Japan and Korea looked to emulate from South America rather than England like our approach to the game, which can still be seen when watching MLS/top american soccer.

You'd be surprised..... many guys just get purchased based on less.

The second part was about donovan. Sorry, I didn't make that clear. He was deemed a failiure largely here because of his stint at Bayern not going well.

Dempsey probably did get sniffs, but when they found out how much Fulham wanted, all those teams deemed him not worth it.


Whats the biggest transfer fee paid for an american out of curioisity? Does anyone know? Is it Jozy with taht 10 million USD transfer?

No, the training I am sure was top notch. It's the 'atmosphere'. The players were very 'cold' to him, unlike his time at everton where from how he described it, was the EXACT opposite of the atmosphere at training and hanging with the players at Bayern.

Doesn't matter, the coach isn't playing onj the field with him. If his teammates don't warm to him, he might as well be playing with the enemy. There was no chemistry, and Donovan is known to be a 'softie' when it comes to stuff like that. He is a very 'feeling' type of personality, and with people like that, this is just brutal for them.


Yes, that is not written in any books... but for those that have followed his career, know that its basically written in between the lines.

Sure.

It isn't necessarily superior, but there are things we can learn about the importance of tecnique, and the 'small' things of the game.


Yes, they produce so many players because of how soccer crazy the countries are. Argentina has the most soccer stadiums in the world in such short distances of each other.

That alone should tell you why they make so many pros. Everyone and their mother hopes to make it as a pro soccer player.

 

I will argue players like Donovan, Dempsey and Howard could play for "bigger" clubs. They made career choices them got them stuck in situations where it is very difficult to get away. The same goes for a lot of other American players.

 

The feckless attack aside from a few players is just due to our pool imo. We are relying on two proven players (who have yet to be on the field at the same time...) and a bunch of younger players to lead our attack. Also, remember Donovan and Shea missed open nets. JK is not playing to outscore teams. He wants possession and pressuring from all parts of the field. 1-0 and 2-0 wins will suit him fine. He played MB instead of Edu and we got more goals but also gave up two.

The CB's
Honestly, I'm expecting Cameron just to be okay..the others I'm not so sure about. The others have not played in a while and are not that skilled to begin with. Obviously the younger CB's are also more tctically naive.

 

Shows how availability of our two best players affects play.
I think it is early to judge about Shea and even the best miss an open net.
Edu is a more defensive central mid, Bradley needs to play WITH Edu or Jones or Beckerman---which is what JK will do.
JK demands his roster has no benchwarmers and that's what we'll see.
If an MLS or yank abroad was sitting before the break, he won't be on the roster and that of course doesn't apply to Cameron, Gonzalez or Whitbread (since injured often) even. Don't know about Ream, do you? He may even call Parkhurst who is playing RB now.

 

Howard did play for ManU. Otherwise, they're not "stuck" if they're good enough and wanted enough.

 

I'm not gonna deny that Donovan and Dempsey have a lot to do with our attack, but that really only adds to my argument. We have two great attacking players, and a not so great defense, so we start using those two attacking players, along with young, dangerous players like Shea and Altidore, to get enough goals to keep us out of reach of the opponent.

What I'm saying is that we need to find a better way of managing the game. Our backline isn't good enough for us to sit deep and wait for the opponent, anymore anyways...

Since we can't depend on our backline/overall defensive ability, we need to try to possess the ball more if for no other reason than to keep our opponent from having it so that there is less pressure on our defense.

Our attack wasn't really about long balls under Bob Bradley. It was once we took that lead, or were in a favorable group situation ( 1-1 with England), that our team turned into long ball central. We lobbed the ball forward, not trying to find the forwards, but more trying to buy time for our team to reshape itself and prepare for the next attack. Essentially, our way of "managing the game" was to kick the ball as far back down the field, even against inferior teams. So in that sense, there was some truth to the "Bunker Bob" talk.

Again, I think we need to keep possession to manage the game and prevent our defense from being exposed. But to attack, we need to use the more aggressive possession that we used under Bob Bradley.

Even with those missed nets from Donovan and Shea, those were moments that came from our more accelerated possession, not patiently breaking anybody down. And I'm glad Juergen isn't just trying to outscore teams. I want him to focus on our manner of managing the game as well. But I don't want him to turn possession into our main style of attack. I don't really know that Bradley being put in for Edu really had much to do with the amount of goals we conceded. It was a completely different system in which we, again, shielded our defense a lot less because we didn't keep the ball as deliberately. Starting to see a pattern? More possession means the opponent has less of the ball, which means they have less chance to expose our defense.

 

He was bought dirt cheap. As a prospect. Its different now that his price I am sure is a pretty penny (for an american IMO).

 

Quite the admission. You really want us to continue to play that way?

Patient just means "don't just kick the long ball and give the ball away. Move the ball laterally or backwards until you have a better chance to safely advance it forward.". Increased speed and tempo as the ball is advanced is a core part of possession ball.

FYI both of those chances occured because we had broken down the defensive shape with possession. In the Donovan chance we had compressed the left side of their defense with possession and aggressive attack from Shea on that side. On the Shea chance we had compressed their right hand side with possession and an aggressive attack from Williams on that side.

 

Sure, when you play 3 defensive mids, you're going to give the opposition less room to work.

The second Klinsmann shifted away from that....Honduras and Slovenia, our defense looked just as shitty as ever.

Honduras should have scored 4 on us if not for Howard, and Slovenia did a pretty good job of slicing us up too.

That goal had nothing to do with soccer IQ.

Soccer IQ is reading the game, rather than reacting to the game. It is making the right runs. It is making the right pass at the right time. Our players do not do any of those things well. Even Donovan and Dempsey.

How many European coaches and scouts have you spoken with. Because I've spoken to a lot. It was my job. And I can tell you, what you are asserting, is categorically wrong.

You couldn't possibly be more wrong.

Yeah...winning our group a little more than a year ago is ancient history.

Again, this is beyond wrong.

So what you're saying is that other countries produce better players than the US, but the fact that the US has no players on any elite teams has nothing to do with that.

It has to do with the fact that the NFL is the most popular league in this country, and we don't use the metric system.

That doesn't sound bat shit crazy at all.

This is true in a fantasy world. In the real world, with the globalization of the game, the internet, and millions of dollars on the line, teams tend to base their purchases on more than one goal.

Not when the rumors are generated by the Sun, or some other English tabloid that admittedly makes shit up to fill column inches.

We aren't talking about the US player pool's ability to play for clubs like Everton or Bolton or Fulham. We're talking about their ability to play for Bayern, Milan, or Manchester United.

We have first hand evidence that the best US player ever produced wasn't good enough to play for the elite teams.

You're excuse is that Landon was too soft to play in that environment. Not exactly a ringing endorsement, or a cogent argument to suggest that he would succeed in any other elite environment.

I'm going to start a blog, and just make up a lot of speculative transfer prices.

I'll send you the link.

And that will be just as credible as the fan site you keep referring to where you are getting a pretend figure for Dempsey.

No it isn't. Their guess is still a guess. Its not based on anything but a guess.

So the same player pool was capable of being on of the highest scoring teams in the world during the last qualifying cycle.

But now that same player pool is so shitty offensively, that our offensive woes have nothing at all to do with playing 3 defensive center middies and a lone striker.

I'm not sure how he plans to qualify for the World Cup if he doesn't plan on trying to outscore teams.

Apparently a bunch of 1-0 losses suit him just fine too...and a lot of folks on here too.

We get it. You have a man crush on Edu and you hate Bradley.

Its comical that you would imply that Bradley was responsible for the two goals we conceded against Slovenia.

Its pathetic that you refuse to acknowledge that we complete changed tactics against Slovenia, and that was the reason why we scored more goals...it was also the reason we gave up more goals.

Nobody does.

That why folks are advocating using possession as a way to protect a lead...But not as a way to try and build a lead.

Its been said repeatedly in black and white easy to understand language. Your strawman arguments have gotten even less creative since you changed your screen name SuperCooper.

 

Did you not read the rest of that post? I said that sort of lack of judgment with the ball is what got us into trouble and that I'd like to see our way of managing the game be that we keep the ball better rather than booting long, reorganizing, and preparing for the next raid on our defense

Yes, increasing the tempo as you advance is part of possession, but teams who counter-attack and play a bit more direct are quicker right out of the gate. That's the difference - possession focuses more on ball/player movement to open up and exploit spaces, where as counter attacking sides focus more on exploiting spaces that are already there when the opponent pushes numbers forward by quickly moving the ball into the attack.

The question is - what are we better at? Or rather, once we get the hang of the new style, will we be better at it than our more direct/counter-attacking style? I really don't think so, and I really don't think you can just train these players into that style in the VERY short time that Klinsmann has with these players. It took ages for Spain to win a World Cup playing the way they do, and that's because they've got TWO LEAGUES that play that way. Like Bolivianfuego says, it's a ridiculous risk to take. Even if we DO get the hang of it, we won't be better at it than the style we're better at right now, and it won't be some of the important games we're sure to lose...

 

Dempsey, Donovan and Howard are "stuck" at their current clubs, which is not to say they're not good enough to play at bigger teams. It is to say, they are not good enough to make a move. Why?

- current world economy (and football economy)
- they're of "too" much value for their current teams
- so they're over priced
- they're already making a huge amount of money
- and are on (extended) long contracts
- they're in EPL
- they're too old to represent any value in case they will (have to) move on
- they're too old to really improve and increase their value
- they would block talented (youth) players
- they're not homegrown players in EPL
- there are better/cheaper/more promising/more convenient alternatives available

So are they not good enough to represent or even play at bigger teams? No.
Are they stuck? Yes!

 

I argue, that our guys do. Dempsey pulled that out of his ass. Its that 'just try shit' attitude which many of the best players have had, from Ronaldo all the way to Pele. They went with their gut instincts and sometimes selfish plays but made it into moments of Brilliance.

Dempseys moment was that chip shot. Had he missed terribly... he'd probably not slept for weeks on selfishly pissing away a could be clutch moment.

Donovan has the speed and ability to dribble at that speed and skill to just 'make shit' happen with through balls and 'clutch' moments like that goal vs. Brasil.

Put a 'average' player with 'average' speed and dribbling ability and they'd trip on their feet running at speed or flub it somehow. That is an ability on its own, to come up big in games. Many players at all levels crumble under pressure, but are superstars on the practice field, and vice versa.

Right, you're still american, they won't tell you that stuff.

There is a stigma there, but if you choose not to see it, or acknowledge it exists, then so be it.

Yes, that was great.... but its more about consistency than anything else. There is a reason why mexico gets more respect than us in WC's, we aren't consistent at making it out of our group. Until that point comes.... you know what I am getting at. We still aren't looked at, as much. Although things are slowly changing.

I hope we can ride this win of our group for 2014. Maybe make it out of our first match our of the group stages.

Why is then, our top guys fail to get sniifs outside of other big league countries that value technical skills like Koreans, Japanese players do, like italy or spain?

Nope. There is a stigma tied to being 'american' and our lack of 'understanding' about the sport still in south america and europe (more importantly). Because of that, deep down, when it comes to similar players with similar skills, our players will get played down because of this 'stigma'.

Our players are underrated, and in the eyes of europe, our top guys are too expensive (and a gamble as a result of their price).

Yes, but he has shown how well he has played for Fulham, and how pretty consistent he is with clutch goals and plays.... That would only help his cause beyond that goal.

Think what you want.

It would only make too much sense for a big italian team to look into him (only IMO to be scared away by his price).

You're thinking too much like a reporter. ALl about stats. Put yourself in his shoes. Think like a 'person'.

If elite means 'treated coldly' and 'cold working enviroment' then yes. He can't succeed in those enviroments.

Not ALL top teams are managed like that. Ever hear how Pep Guardiola coaches? He is very 'warm' and touchy feely with his players. Micro managing them, and bringing them along. Thoe whole team too are like brothers, and all bond well wtih each other.

Exact opposite of what was reporting at Landons time at Bayern.

My point is, atmosphere is important to a players success, especially one as 'feeling' as Donovan. That's why he showed he can succeed with a team that 'gels' with him better.

And my point of bringing up Barca', not all top clubs are 'cold' like Bayern.

Go ahead.

Still has a better 'guessers' than you or I.

Right. Again, probably more educated than yours or mine.

But write it off, because if you don't hear things first hand... you won't believe it.

You're more a 'thinker' than a 'feeler'. That's for sure.

 

None of what you said has anything at all to do with soccer IQ.

I'm pretty good at knowing when someone is blowing smoke up my ass. And a dozen or so coaches of top European clubs, I would have been able to see through at least one of them if they were all bullshitting me.

There is no stigma. The fact that you prefer to cling to a ridiculous conspiracy theory rather than listen to your own arguments is truly sad.

You already answered this question yourself. Our players aren't as good. You said it yourself.

In South America sure. In Europe, no. You're wrong. Currently close to 100 Americans playing professionally in Europe. Of the last decade, that number rises to several hundred.

Americans get plenty of chances in plenty of league. We've had Americans captain teams in Scotland, England, Germany and Holland.

There is no stigma.

This assertion is based on what evidence exactly?

Or is it just something you have to convince yourself of, otherwise you'd have to admit that your conspiracy theory is just that.

And yet not a single team has made a big for him to even test the market. I mean, you'd figure if there was genuine interest, someone would have at least tried to make a low ball bid for Dempsey. But nobody has.

Elite means intense competition every single day for your spot on the field. You yourself say that Donovan is soft. Your words, not mine.

And as "cold" as you claim the environment was at Bayern, the coach was a huge advocate of Donovan's

I don't need to hear it first hand. But it would be nice to see a source more reputable than a fan site that guesses just like you or me would.

You probably think MLS Rumors is a real site too.

 

shoot, we might as well can this thread till later.

 

Forget that. This is all that's keeping me going till the next match.

 

Dempsey's goal vs Juventus had EVERYTHING to do with "soccer I Q"....not sure how anyone can argue differently....

 

"Soccer IQ" seems to be a pretty nebulous term as it's being used in this thread.

I think GVPATS is referring to intelligence of movement and passing; the subtle, off-the-ball awareness required to run the "possession" style Klinsmann wants to implement. And he is absolutely correct in that if American players have any inherent flaws, it is deficiencies in these areas due to unsophisticated coaching at formative ages.

The Dempsey chip was a piece of individual brilliance that you don't have to be a genius to try but need to have technical skill to pull off. It came when Fulham were desperately trying to score in order to stay alive in that tie; they were throwing anything they could at the keeper.

The Dempsey goal was a good individual play; it wasn't anything terribly creative or unpredictable when you consider the context.

Guys like Pat Noonan, Davy Arnaud, and John Wolyniec have scored some crazy goals before, too. That alone doesn't make them Juventus-quality.

 

His goal displayed an understanding of the game. Where the goal was...where the goalkeeper was likely to be....and he did this in a split second....then exectued the shot to perfection...if that ain't "soccer I Q" then I'm f'in chinese.

 

I'm not disagreeing with you.

What I'm saying is that the term "soccer IQ" as it's being used in this thread (check the title) refers to the off-the-ball tactical intelligence required to successfully run the system Klinsmann wants.

Dempsey will be able to do shit like that no matter who the coach is or what system he is playing.

 

Systems of play are determined by the quality of the players available for selection.....you fit the system (tactics) to the players you have....not the other way around. You cannot want (well, you can...but you'd be fcuked) your players to perform like Spain if you don't have a Xavi, Iniesta et al to do it....and by the time the players available reach the national team they either have the skill or they don't.....The USA at this time just has NOT produced the quality of player neccessary.....and all the "tactics" in the world will not change that fact....

Many players are "discovered" at a very young age....Messi signed with Barcelona at age 12 or so....Rooney with Everton when he was 11.....these clubs did not just pick some kid off the streets....they recognised real "talent" when then saw it....and then gave that talent the means in which to develop.

IMO the "club system" in the USA just does not work as far as developing world class players....the kids do not spend enough time playing the game...(8 hours a week ain't gonna do it)....Messi, Rooney and countless others spent 30-40 hours a WEEK playing the game...at school, during recess,in the streets at the park...wherever...by the time they were 11 or 12 the potential was already there....and it was there because of the countless hours spent loving the game...the pro clubs nutured that potential. The "clubs" in the USA care about "winning" games and making money off the back of their 12 year olds....and in large measure succeed in taking the fun out of the game for countless numbers of kids as well as managing to exclude countless numbers of kids who cannot afford their exorbitent "fees"....until Klinsmann and the US Federation are able to change this situation then the USA national team will remain just what it is today.

 

I don't think you understand what I meant. Look at england66's response.

Dempsey had 'vision' enough to see that the goalkeeper was out kind of out. So he 'chipped' him. That vision alone is soccer IQ. The 'feel' he had when chipping it is the other half.

Only the best players can 'feel' that and pull it off. If you don't understand why that took soccer IQ.... because you're just watching this game/sport wrong then.

Right. Based on your response above, I think there are things that will fly over your head without you truly 'feeling' things or truly 'understanding'.

Right. I am just saying what too many are scared to put in words, or probably have thought.

It's too 'anti PC' for people to really admit or think.

The majority of guys that our country produce have been work horses, who can get bought cheap and be the best 'bang for the buck', but we are getting a new breed that will be the next 'reynas' 'tab ramos', 'dooleys', etc. (Many of our youth at the U23 level are going to be exciting players to watch. Different from past generations IMO)

Donovan, Howard, and Dempsey IMO are as good as those guys if not better, and could play for top teams in england or italy. They have 'it' IMO, but for whatever the reason, aren't considered worth their value to purchase.

MLS want too much for an aging Donovan (is what europe thinks), same can be said too about Dempsey.

Say what you want about Dempseys value, but unless you're his agent, you're as credible as your username on Big Soccer.

Yes, they get chances because they go there on free transfers or cost nothing.

My point is, when clubs have to pay a pretty penny, the 'cheap' american is not worth paying bigger bucks for, because they don't see us worth as much as MLS wants for Donovan, Howard for everton, or Dempsey at Fulham.

I am just piecing together what I 'think' (from my own experiences and interactions), judge me all you want.

Sad thing is, there are people who agree, but bully's like you scare them off.

Unless you're his agent, who really knows who flirted with the idea of looking into how much fulham would want for his transfer.

If you do know, please let us in on this 'privy' info.

I explained this already.

Yes, on a pro team every player competes with others in practice. But look at how Barcelona runs their team compared to Bayern. Its a night and day. One is 'cold', players arent very friendly with each other. Cut throat, players often get 'chippy' in practice. Thats given a 'thumbs up' by those running the club.

In Barcelona, Pep keeps it close, players are friends, but they all get work done, train hard, and are often understanding and just happy and in love with how close their coach is to them.

Klinsi lost his team, and his 'wonder boy' I am sure got less than comforting treatment while there.

We all know how Donovan is with 'comforts'. That was not the right team for him to succeed just based on that. I don't care woh he is playing with. If your teammates don't like you, chances are you won't do well there.

Right. Take it for what its worth. Its one of the most popular sites in germany that people visit(sports wise). They try to keep it as 'independent' as possible.

I take it for what its worth, an estimate.

I take that over anything you say based on its merit and worth fans and football media take it for in europe.

Unless you can prove to me you have close ties to dempsey or his agent, I have no reason to take anything that you say as 'serious' because you're just another guy typing from a computer here on BS.

Your response to 'soccer iq' (on Dempseys goal) really make me question your ability to read and see the game beyond numbers, facts, and statistics.

 

I agree, well said both soccer and Personally. There are some that feel reading a book and watching a game and a practice or two and they are instant experts. I recently asked one "if one watches a heart surgery a thousands of times does that make us a thoracic surgeon??" Point is, if you do not know how to do do something you will never be an expert at it. Because you do not know what it takes to get it done. It is the bullying by the few on here who dominate the conversation that have kept me from posting any longer. Just had to say that regardless of whether I agree with everything Mr. Bfuego says He should not be personally attacked. Yet it goes on and on... You can disagree but why resort to personal insults??
What a load. Where are the moderators??

 

"Soccer IQ" is not defined by one moment of brilliance. At least as far as the common use of the term goes.

If posters want to think "soccer IQ" is a "genius" chip in game against Juventus, they are of course free to do so.

 

Watching something a thousand times and calling it "instant" is errr... contradictory.

If someone watches a thousand heart surgeries it doesn't make him/her a surgeon, but he/she probably has become an expert by then.

 

But it is part of it. It is not instinctual. Takes thought.