Sidebar from YA: US players got skillz?

Discussion in 'USA Men' started by sidefootsitter, Dec 21, 2012.

  1. soccerusa517

    soccerusa517 Member+

    Jun 23, 2009
    Ohio
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Donovan sucks at dribbling




    needs more heel flicks and stepovers to be successful IMO.

    And Ricardo Quaresma is world class. lol
     
  2. Pass-n-Go

    Pass-n-Go Member+

    Jul 5, 2008
    Those actually highlight SFS's point.
     
  3. Pass-n-Go

    Pass-n-Go Member+

    Jul 5, 2008
     
  4. bungadiri

    bungadiri Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jan 25, 2002
    Acnestia
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Only if you accept the way he's rigged the game by eliminating any recourse to Donovan's key strengths (the situations in which he uses his speed to excel don't count--even though there are plenty of players out there who demonstrate that speed without touch makes you a far less valuable player than Donovan is) or by damning him for something that happens to almost everyone (accuracy goes down when you try to hit the shot harder). I don't think those videos support the hypothesis that Donovan is "poor" or "woefully inadequate" at anything.
     
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  5. Mr Martin

    Mr Martin Member+

    Jun 12, 2002
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This made me laugh out loud. Donovan is a weaker dribbler and shooter than Holden. Hillarious.
     
  6. sidefootsitter

    sidefootsitter Member+

    Oct 14, 2004
    They are per position. Holden is a plugger and a support player. Donovan is a purported creator, a position where double-marking is often expected. No one ever double marks a holding mid.

    PS. Here's a gem from the past. Recall those match grades?


    http://www.kicker.de/news/fussball/...analyse_bayern-muenchen-14_1-fc-koeln-16.html
     
  7. futbal4eva

    futbal4eva Member+

    Jan 3, 2010
    Club:
    Sao Paulo FC
    Donovan got same grade as Van Bommel, another slacker I guess. We can cherry-pick plays and games one way or another, this is a curious thread.

    Only corrections I will make is Donovan has made repeated valued contributions to:
    currently near-Champion's League Everton (6th)
    just like Jones with Schalke (7th, down from their recent higher standards)
    and Mike with Roma (6th)

    I personally would start mid-table a few places below any of those 3 squads current placements.

    Anyway, a top third if not CL squad in top 4 leagues, we might agree, requires certain level of ball skills above 'poor' for anyone to be in first 11 right. Beyond just being hard workers.

    And yeah Dempsey/Tottenham in 3rd currently in BPL is pretty sweet and a rarity for Yanks Abroad, and of course season is not over by a long shot.

    Still, the general point that we/US player pool over time is mainly building from the back with goalies, defenders, and midfielders, and few/no world-class strikers yet to make a mark in a top 4 league is a point reasonably well-taken, even with more than sufficient hyperbole by sidefootsitter to stir the pot.
     
  8. jamtime

    jamtime Member

    Jan 14, 2007
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Mississippi Messi


    The chosen one


    That is all.
     
  9. Berks

    Berks Member+

    Dec 22, 2010
    NorCal
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You don't watch Everton do you? I know you were talking about shooting, of which there is ample evidence you choose to ignore, but if you are going to talk Everton, you must realize his two stints were about creating chances, not shooting right?

    Wanna look at his chances created stats and assists and compare that to the rest of Everton players for his stints there?

    Here's some help:
    http://espn.go.com/sports/soccer/bl...landon-donovan-second-loan-everton-five-aside
    http://www.eplindex.com/9060/why-everton-must-buy-landon-donovan-stats.html

    As for Castrol, the bastion of valuing a player's worth, let's also keep in mind this, shall we:
    http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/article/2012/10/23/analyst-extra-donovan-playmaker-still-charts

    His skills at Everton were more than sufficient - he resuscitated their season. Twice. You act like he kinda wandered in and wandered out.

    Saying a player isn't "all that" due to 1 skill is myopic. Every player has weaknesses - you value their full body of work. And on full body of work, I have no idea why you rate LD as low as you do.
     
  10. sidefootsitter

    sidefootsitter Member+

    Oct 14, 2004
    Ah, but I do indeed, so your assumption fails.


    Well, that's a bad excuse. It's like an old line about a wide receiver, "Q: How are his receiving skills? A: He's a good blocker".

    Donovan doesn't shoot well, so he may as well set up chances by his crossing and passing, two tasks which he does well. But it doesn't take away from the fact that he doesn't shoot on goal or dribbles much, especially in traffic.


    He is definitely one of the top playmakers in MLS.

    But I have already opined on MLS standards.

    I will give you this - unlike the majority of the MLS statistical leaders, his game is transferable to a larger league under the right circumstances.

    I don't see anyone making the excuses for van Bommel. If he had a bad game, he had a bad game. He also had his share of great games for Bayern. Donovan, despite his allegedly magisterial talents did not. Somehow, those who ascribe to Donovan every talent imaginable fail to explain how and why he failed in his two stints in Germany.
     
  11. futbal4eva

    futbal4eva Member+

    Jan 3, 2010
    Club:
    Sao Paulo FC
    I don't ascribe every talent imaginable to Donovan, but the guy has talent. You aren't as reliable from the pk spot as Donovan if you can't shoot with power and accuracy. And yeah have steady nerves; but just good nerves are not enough. Anyway, as Dononvan's on wrong side of 30 now, I am not talking current skills; fact is Donovan has a good shot, or he would not have scored so much for club and county over the years. Not complicated.

    Now as to Germany, Donovan in Germany part I comes down to a homesick teenager who - went home to Southern California rather than fight for respect and place through another dreery lonely German winter.

    Part II, Landon in Bayern, is as much about the long knives already out to get Klinsmann, and utilizing his proclaimed over-rating of Landon as the proof of Juergen's ineptness, as anything Landon did or did not do. Yes, Landon banged in goals during the pre-season...in Dubai? I forget. Yes, in Landon's minutes on the field against Bundesliga competition, when equally well set up by his quality Bayern Munich teammates...Landon choked/flubbed sitters/mishit the ball.

    I'm not that kind of doctor so can;t say how much was the environment - Juergen and Landon didn't need to be paranoid, since FC Hollywood players and coaches were out to get them - and how much was Landon cracking under the pressure/needing more than few games to settle in. Which is of course a quite common need for forwards, and goal-scoring middies, at many top clubs. Who got more than a few months to show what they can do before their supposed failure is used to prove...that Klinsmann doesn;t know what he's doing.

    And those were the good old days ; )

    To conclude on the amatuer hour of Landon psychology, Donovan has certainly done far better when with Everton, which is not quite as stuffed with egos as Munich, also to some degree because he felt the love/fan and coach appreciation that he didn;t quite get in Leverkusen or Munich. But note, the fans in Everton, wouldn't love him, if he was really the no-skills guy you are claiming.
     
  12. Berks

    Berks Member+

    Dec 22, 2010
    NorCal
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You are using his two stints in Germany as the leading indicator of his entire career and taking away successes at Everton (where apparently "the right circumstances" came together - which if you're saying you watch the club is 100% BS - he was the creative fulcrum of the team for two flipping months, and a key asset in his previous stint - stop acting like he walked into a club where everything was roses), the USMNT, and yes, MLS where he has dominated.

    The only one who is giving excuses is you - who takes every stat and evidence and backs it up by two stints in Germany - one as a 16 year old.

    The sheer volume of performance stats for LD is mind boggling. The folks who choose to just ignore that evidence have other motives imo. If you don't like him, just say so. But to diminish his talent is just weak. Everyone has weaknesses, but someone doesn't score 200+ career goals if they are a bad shot. Nor place perfect passes to generate 150+ assists.

    P.S. Not only was he the top playmaker in MLS, he was the top playmaker in the EPL in the two months he played for Everton. Not too shabby that.
     
  13. olephill2

    olephill2 Member+

    Oct 6, 2006
    Club:
    Watford FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Freddy Adu is probably the best pure dribbler in the US pool, in terms of his ability to take defenders 1v1 in tight spaces and display trickery on the ball. But how far has that got him? While he may be fun to watch, Adu lacks the top-class athleticism and speed required to play the game at its highest level, which means that even if he beats a defender off the dribble, he is unlikely to outrun other defenders on his way to goal.

    I'd take Donovan's ball skill over Adu's, in the sense that Donovan has a good first touch, passing ability and combination play, but also exceptional speed with and without the ball. Donovan doesn't play with flair, nor does he beat defenders 1v1 off the dribble using elaborate trickery. But give him a few yards of space, and he can cause havoc for defenders.

    I agree with SFS that Donovan does not have a powerful shot in the sense that top strikers do, but he has still found a way to chip in lots of goals at the club and international levels, and it is hard to argue with his historical goal scoring record.
     
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  14. Berks

    Berks Member+

    Dec 22, 2010
    NorCal
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Astute statement. If we had said this, I wouldn't have had a problem with it. And that space no longer depends on pace - that's where he has improved.
     
  15. #1 Feilhaber and Adu

    Aug 1, 2007
    Everytime i watch Cameron with Stoke he shows nice ball skills and combination play, maybe im getting lucky and seeing the best of him at those specific moments but i doubt it. His ball skills are underrated by SFS.
     
  16. Jeff Bradley

    Jeff Bradley Member+

    Jun 3, 1999
    Manasquan, NJ on the beautiful Jersey Shore.
    Club:
    Le Havre AC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The LD shot vs. Slovenia had a little mustard on it.
     
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  17. Grumpy in LA

    Grumpy in LA Bringing It Since 1807™

    Sep 10, 2007
    Chicago
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Doesn't count. Wasn't against Germans.
     
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  18. bye_urn

    bye_urn Member

    Aug 13, 2009
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Steve Nash is a below average shot blocker.
    Joe Montana is sub-par because he couldn't run a double move route.
    Wayne Gretzky was ungreat at...nevermind..The Great One gets a pass.
    SFS arguments are vapid due to his ghetto spelling of skills with a "z".
     
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  19. bungadiri

    bungadiri Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jan 25, 2002
    Acnestia
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Actually, I'm the one who gave the thread its title. So his arguments will have to be vapid for some other reason, because I have dibs on the cultural cooptation vapidity thingy.
     
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  20. MPNumber9

    MPNumber9 Member+

    Oct 10, 2010
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It was also pretty well-placed (he scored a similar goal in the Scotland friendly, sending the ball into the roof of the goal when the defender and GK threw themselves down in front of it).

    Thing is, I raaaaarely ever see Landon take a long distance power shot anymore. Ask any Galaxy fan on this board and they'll attest, with frustration, at how rare it is to see Donovan just take a random shot to test the keeper. Doesn't mean he can't though (off the top of my head):

     
  21. Friedel'sAccent

    Friedel'sAccent Member+

    Jul 7, 2006
    Providence, RI
    Club:
    Reading FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Don't you mean "dibz"?
     
  22. bungadiri

    bungadiri Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jan 25, 2002
    Acnestia
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Don't tempt me. It was all could do to stop myself from saying "my bad, brah." It'z a slippery slope.
     
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  23. MPNumber9

    MPNumber9 Member+

    Oct 10, 2010
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Thing is--the list of attacking players that score most of their goals that way is very small. In fact, it probably is just two guys right now. You just don't see players consistently slaloming through defenders like Pele' and Maradona did because defenders and defensive tactics are just way better now. It hardly seems like a knock against Landon that he doesn't beat defenders on the dribble because there are many top players that don't crucially rely on that ability as part of their game.
     
  24. Jeff Bradley

    Jeff Bradley Member+

    Jun 3, 1999
    Manasquan, NJ on the beautiful Jersey Shore.
    Club:
    Le Havre AC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think it was 2007. Donovan hit a bomb vs. Ecuador. That was a good one.
     
  25. Sam Hamwich

    Sam Hamwich Member+

    Jul 11, 2006
    Donovan really can't dribble. His entire game is predicated on beating you to the spot that needs to be occupied then either shooting or passing. I do think he can shoot and can dribble fast with the ball, but there is very little skill on the ball.

    Holden's most important attribute is probably his mind. He was almost always in the right place, making the right play, then having the presence of mind to outlet, cross, dribble as required.

    Cameron is a better dribbler and passer and crosser than we are giving him credit for here. One must add points as he plays for the Stoke City Steelers.

    As I see it, we are capable of beating the #1 team in the world perhaps 2 out of 10 times, but we arent capable of winning the world cup in 1 out of 20 times. And unlike a lot of people here I place it not on the entire skill package or ruggedness, for me it is even more basic: first touch.

    If the US players had better first touch in tight spaces, on tough passes, in the box, we'd be terrific.
     

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