Woah, that's way too much of a blank check for any team. This team is stacking big fat "L's in a loss pile that is starting to obscure my view of the Rockies but we should remain apathetic until Fergy knocks on the door?
The Rockies are also making a big fat stack of "L's". It's hard to see, because it's behind CU's big fat stack.
Seeing as relegation is not a worry, the brand is up and league profits are "shared", then I am sure rebuilding can take a little longer than any fan here or player there is comfortable with. Will it though? We sure as hell do not know what next year brings. We don't "expect" anything, we simply have to hope. This year is in the toilet spiritually, if not mathematically, hence all the back biting. No matter what platitudes the FO mouths about always competeing, that is a half baked team on the field we see before us. No matter what miracles they performed in 2010 they were day old goods then. And a smidge lucky too. Next year we should see if the dough is rising or if Aunt Pareja's pastry shop will have to shutter it's doors. This year, it aint pretty but it's also too soon to pull the muffins out.
What sorts of teams did they inherit? It doesn't seem like this team has a horrible record because it was torn down in a rebuilding effort. Most of the core from previous two years started the year with the team. How would you characterize the team's play this season? To me, nobody but Pickens and Mullan have played well consistently, and some of those guys are decent players who have played well in the past. None of the "units" (CB pairing, midfield, etc.) have played consistently well. When the team does play well, it often makes mistakes and loses anyway. That seems rather damning of Pareja rather than Bravo. Maybe they'd be better if Bravo were feeding Pareja the sorts of players he needs. But as the losses started mounting and something needed to be done "now," it was on Pareja to make adjustments with the players he did have, and his responses don't seem to have helped.
There's been some question (with no supporting evidence, just the question) if the formation and style are being driven by Bravo rather than Pareja, and if Pareja's being told to play/not play certain players. Like I said, there's been no evidence of that, but some of the decisions made over the course of the season have made people ask, and lately I can't roll my eyes at the idea as much as I did early in the year.
Why? It's true that a year isn't a long time for a new coach. But when the year goes as poorly as this one has, with seemingly *no* progress, what reason is there to expect a turnaround and is it enough to offset the real risk of 2nd disaster season? From the stands, it looks pretty bad, as likeable as Oscar appears to be. What are you guys seeing that keeps you optimistic? It's a little weird for me to be on this side of the argument. I have no idea how to run a soccer team, or any sports club. So as a fan, I tend to be slow to the "coach must be fired" boiling point. But whenever I think about this, it's hard for me to see why shouldn't fire Pareja. Fear of the next hire isn't good enough. The FO could screw it all up again, sure. But to me, that sort of fear isn't much of an argument for keeping Pareja, because I don't see the signs of improvement. They do try to keep possession and work the ball up the field patiently. But there were times they did that under Smith, too. So I'm not sure how much progress that sort of toothless possession is.
There are really only two factors that keep me from going completely to the "Fire Pareja now" side of things (and I'm partially there anyway). 1. With a couple of exceptions like the SJ I've felt like we've been in most games, only for a stupid defensive mistake or a forward being unable to hit the broadside of the barn to make the difference. There were many games in the Clavijo era which I felt like we were out of it after 5 minutes. and more importantly: 2. After talking to the trio of Hinchey/Bravo/Pareja I realized that all 3 of dedicated to taking the team down this road of South American/Latin/whatever you want to call it style of play. The 4-3-3 the South American influx of players, etc. its not just Pareja or just Bravo, its all 3 of them. Not only that but Bravo admits to having pushed this since the moment he got here in 2009. So firing Pareja won't change anything, they're just going to find another coach who will go along with this system. Knowing KSe they won't spend much money for it so it will be another little-to-no experience coach and we'll have another learning year all over again. At least staying with Pareja gives us a coach that knows the players already. That's not to say that Pareja shouldn't be fired, just that I don't think it will make a difference if he is, so why not give him a chance to learn, a full offseason to work on problems, and at least the first part of next season to see if he's figured it out? At this point I'm pretty much at the "Better the devil you know" level. Of course it doesn't really matter because we all know KSE's not going to eat his contract anyway.
At this point a revolving coaches door based only on immediate success will spin almost perpetually. Let this team get formed in an image, ANY IMAGE will do and then we can assess from there. This team currently is maybe not even half formed and has no identity. If, at this time next year, we are having the same conversations then, I repeat, it is time to wield the axes. That's not optimism, it's something else entirely.
I hope that you are right. But when I see the funamental breakdowns that Quinn is harping on I am swayed. I think it would be much more helpful, since this notion seems to prevail, for me to have a positive to hang my hat on.
I don't recall when I first said it, but I said I would give OP until around the middle of the 2013 season. The reason was to allow time to get a full team of players to implement the new system. I keep reading how the Rapids were MLS Champions in 2010 and now OP has driven the team into the ground. I was under no illusion that OP was hired to take Gary Smiths team and make them better. I was told, and what I believe, is OP was hired to completely remake the team into a team with a completely new style. In that sense, the Rapids are more like an expansion team then a team one year out from a championship team. The change in style is huge. The Rapids have a core of high priced players and I felt time was needed to see how the high priced impact players would adapt to the changes. Depending on the results, they would have the entire off season to replace them. OP was hired in January of 2012. I thought giving him about ~1.5 years was reasonable. As of now we're about half way there. I didn't expect the current record but considering the Rapids are still playing with the same group of high priced players (sans Pablo), what the results are telling me is the Rapids must make the tough decisions to replace the core of this team. Bottom line, I haven't changed my mind.
And, to be fair, a chunk of that core was going to have to be replaced in the near future anyway: Mastroeni - 36 years old and (now) suffering from concussion issues Mullan - 34 years old Casey - 31 years old and (now) becoming injury prone Smith - 31 years old and historically injury prone Cummings - 30 years old and ankles are apparently going Palguta and Pickens are also both 30, but Palguta wasn't a core member and goalkeepers can play much longer usually than field players. Admittedly coming into the season we weren't expecting Pablo's concussion issues, Casey's injury proneness, or Omar's ankles to still be a problem, but now that hey are I'm looking a that core MLS Cup group and realizing that, under Pareja or Smith, there were going to be some big changes coming either way.
It seems to me there's a long, long distance between how this team is performing and immediate success. I wouldn't think to fire a coach after a year just because they had a losing record, for instance. And I think Jason's right, it does seem like KSE would never fire a manager on a contract after just 1 year. So, I guess I had better try harder to find reasons for optimism.
The coach who needs an apology is Clavijo, who had a fair first season and still was criticized like mad. Either many of the regulars around here have gone all polly-anna on us, or they've decided forgo any honesty about where the team was and where it is now. The comparison to Arena, Yallop, Kinnear, and Sigi is an absolute insult to those guys. Yeah, some had bad seasons, not as bad as this. Arena had a bad season after coaching the US, winning several MLS Cups, winning several supporters Shields, winning in an international tournament, and winning at the college level. Yallop was a national team coach, had several MLS Cups and a Supporters Shield. Sigi won at the college level, won several MLS Cups and Supporters shields. Kinnear has two cups and has missed the playoffs once. Who wouldn't give them time? In what universe are the comparable? I'm willing to give Pareja next year, but I see no reason to begrudge Quinn his complaining or pretend that the team is anywhere near the right track. He's right this team is bad, and the excuses I'm reading are not excuses that were extended so willingly in the past. Regardless of that, if the Rapids don't keep him, or even eventually part with him half way into next year or after, Bravo will have to go with him. Talk of passion and good intentions is crap. If that were all that mattered we'd still have Clavijo.
Pickens has more than a few years left in him as GK. I'd put him on the long-term list given his performance this year compared to the rest of the team.
Who is saying it isn't?, Were people all over FC like this 9 months into his tenure? Or to any Rapids coach 9 months in? I honestly don't remember. Although I'm pretty sure I wasn't. Name names please and quotes would also be helpful. Edit. As for Quinn. He's welcome to his opinion, it's no more or less valid then any other. However, at the point he stops refer to people whose opinion differs as "retarded", I'll consider what he has to say.
You're going to have to cite some quotes on that. Given that Clavijo got us to the conference championship his first year I don't remember near the venom that Pareja's gotten before the season even ended. My memory may be faulty though (The archives here go back to 2002 BTW) This time around it was Quinn who brought those names into the discussion. And not in a "based on past success they got more time" but a "how bad were their teams, not this bad" way. So when some of us point out that, yeah, they were pretty bad (Sigi's first Crew team had 33 points in 32 games, his second 37 in 30), its not exactly fair to say we're being insulting. Thus my comment immediately after the part you quoted where I said goalkeepers have longer careers? This. There's disagreement and there's barely coherent ranting. Quinn has gone too far to the latter, especially pointed at people he should know can have rational discussions.
BTW with 3 more points the Rapids will avoid their worst season ever in terms of points/game. Technically they only need 1 more point but I adjusted the 1 overtime loss in 2001 to a draw under current rules.
Other than the bringing up he shall not be named, you are absoluteley correct. It seems like people think that this team is around .500. They are not. This board has gone soft, this is a group of cats that were in a twist over making the playoff in the 5th spot being near .500 and not playing starters in the CLL but now the standard simply does not match results.
And you just completely missed my point...or at least just conveniently chose to ignore it. I'll say it again since you decided to gloss over it. Our players have forgotten the fundamentals of how to play the game. They can't pass, shoot, run, tackle, or mark players. Let me ask you this: How often did you see that with teams that Arena, Sigi, Kinner, or Yallop? I'm not talking about when these guys had several years to build up their system. I'm taking about when they were new at their jobs. Everybody had to start somewhere. So I'll ask it a third time. Did any of the teams that these guys coached forget basic concepts in Soccer 101? LOL, tone it down? I didn't even directly call any individual poster on here any names. Thats nothing. I could be far more direct and mean spirited than that. This is the internet. Thick skin is a plus and you should never take anything personally. Fine. If it makes you happy, I'll retract the "personal attacks", and I apologize for them. How does the loss column look? The most losses of either was Sigi's first year in Columbus, with 15 losses in 32 games. That's less than half, also keeping in mind how bad the team was before he got there. The Columbus that Sigi inherited was the worst team in the league had it not been the first year for Salt Lake and Chivas. By comparison, Pareja has lost 18 out of 29 games. Even if by some miracle he loses no more games this year, that is still more than half the fixtures. This is also a team that was in the playoffs last year, and won MLS Cup the year before. Sigi is a bad comparison to Pareja in the same way Kries is. They didn't make their teams crap...they were already crap to begin with. Pareja inherited a serviceable team and made it crap. As for Arena (which would be a more similar situation than Kries or Sigi), his New York side never missed the playoffs, so he's got Pareja already beat in that scenario. Sure, you can ague a first year drop. The flaw however, is that Pareja's "drop" is far more noticeable, and markedly worse than the counter examples people like to trot out. I keep listing examples of why Pareja is doing a poor job. I have yet to see any of his supporters provide examples that he is doing a good job. Why is this so difficult for people to understand? Using the argument of "Well, X coach started out rough, but had Y amount of time, then they became a good team," is not compelling to me at all when you look at actual performance. ---------- As for the "personal attacks" thing, I'm sick and tired of having to go over the same thing again, and again, and again. I'm sick and tired of having the teams performance repeatedly scream its obvious deficiencies only to have people skirt around them or flat out ignore them. Considering this is a 20 loss season (don't worry, we'll get there), I'm done with the pussyfooting and I'm ready to start judging. But again, fine. I'll retract the "personal attacks", and I apologize for them. FYI, you guys can call me whatever the hell you want. I really and sincerely don't care. Fire away. I'll even give you some ammo. If Pareja somehow makes this team something more than mediocre (and they are nowhere near that good now), I will be the first to admit I was completely wrong in my judgement. While I am admittedly an arrogant prick on this board, I am a big enough man to admit when I'm wrong. I'm also a big enough man that I won't disappear from a board if the tables turn against me. Quote that paragraph. Just save it, sit on it, and wait for the time when Pareja finishes higher than a wildcard spot. Rub it in may face. I'll even make thread where you can use my as a punching bag for your leisure. You can wave it in front of me and throw all the bile at me you can muster.
You do realize that there are people who are saying he's doing a bad job but are willing to give him some more rope, right? Not everyone who hasn't gotten on the Fire Pareja Now! bandwagon is saying he's doing fine.
Amazing how things change. We had good playoff runs in 2005 and 2006. In 2007 we had a new stadium, a new image, and new signings that (at the time) seemed like solid acquisitions. In April of 2007 it really felt like the Rapids could make something happen. There was some buzz. ...and then we tanked. And then I climbed onto the Fire Clavijo bandwagon (later than most as matter of fact). Why then? Because he didn't get the results. To me, missing the playoffs was not acceptable then, and it is still not acceptable now. Then we had 2008, which was a complete waste of time and brain cells. What I really do not want, is a parallel to 2007-2008. Where it was evident the coach couldn't do the job, but ended up far overstaying his welcome anyway because of bullshit excuses.
The argument for keeping him is still the same. Regardless if they're "sunshine and lollypops", or are just disappointed and on the fence...we always seem to end up right back at: I don't really care where you are in the spectrum. That "argument" really doesn't cut it for me.