Should they stay or should they go (now)...

Discussion in 'Colorado Rapids' started by Soaker888, Aug 23, 2012.

  1. kucsdat

    kucsdat Member

    Jul 12, 2012
    Hollande proposed a 75% tax top rate for salaries above EUR 1,000,000 per year.

    "If Ibrahimovic is to pocket in the region of €14m (£10.9m) a year, it has been estimated that PSG will have to shell out a further €21m a year to the French state in taxes and social charges, even before the new 75% tax bracket is imposed, when the real cost could be four times his salary."

    ("A key question is whether the club or the player will pay the income tax due on his salary. Wages in France are sometimes described as "net" after social charges have been deducted but before income tax, not taken at source, is paid.") SOURCE: http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012/jul/21/zlatan-ibrahimovic-psg-tax
     
  2. Dom. FC

    Dom. FC Member+

    May 10, 2004
    Central US
    Well said, I agree with much of that (and you said "relegated").

    What I meant by saying that you can't just impose a new formation, style, and philosophy on an existing set of players comes from a(n ancient) soccer paradigm that says you fit the formation to the players not vice versa. I'm far from the author but I subscribe to the wisdom of it and pointed to that problem early on in regards to the switch to a 4 - 3 - 3 with no/few changes in personnel. And more specifically the problem(s) of that formation with paired d-mids. "Headaches" solved that particular problem and the now panic driven morphing from this to that has made things go from bold new plan to mish-mash and now to apparently just plain mess. I would in fairness add that better finishing as has been mentioned ("strike rate" is the statistic we should look at) could have masked a lot of the problems and maybe even allowed a little more stasis and have us more than just abstractly still in the playoff hunt.

    In regard to strategy and tactics I think I would have had a lot more buy-in if O.P. had arrived and said he wanted to make a change to a 4 - 3 - 3 formation with major changes in style and philosophy and that it would take significant time to implement incrementally. "I hope to be playing attractive possession oriented attacking soccer by a year from now or for sure in two years with lots of small (boring) transition steps between now and then. Along with out-placement of a lot of fan favorite Cup-winning players to make that work." Was probably not what we or the F.O. wanted to hear even if it would have had a lot of truthiness. The immediate 4 - 3 - 3 in pre-season seemed naive then and what has transpired since has not made that less so.
     
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  3. COphysicsDave

    COphysicsDave Member

    Dec 13, 2010
    Centennial State
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This is the most succinct, accurate synopsis of the season I've read so far. You win.
     
  4. COphysicsDave

    COphysicsDave Member

    Dec 13, 2010
    Centennial State
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    41% on all earnings up to 1,000,000? That's still a buttload IMO. And even if it is only on high earners, 75% is just theft. Don't really see why MLS couldn't potentially use this as a selling point (if it comes to fruition) since even the "lower" rate of 41% is still higher than our highest marginal rate. Whether the club or the player pays it, IMO, is irrelevant. TANSTAAFL. Even if the club pays it, the cost just gets passed down the line elsewhere.
     
  5. COYP

    COYP Member

    Aug 5, 2010
    Denver
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    How far away is Davy Armstrong if he can't even get a couple of minutes on this team? Maybe he was much more FO hype for the "success" of the academy than substance as well.
     
  6. jayd8888

    jayd8888 Member+

    Aug 22, 2006
    Denver CO
    I think this question is not as cut and dry as let go of x and y will be an improvement because a salary cap roster requires you to make a strategy of cutting corners in some areas. Making cuts at one position with have a domino effect on other positions.

    Let’s just say that I believe that KSE continues to play the role of ostrich and they allow Bravo to continue with this abomination… let’s face it; putting style before results is not a smart idea. But, heading down this bunny trail…

    I think priority one comes from the loss of Jamie Smith and Pablo… There’s some good shopping that can be done on these dimes much may have already been spent on Thomas. Where I start is the back line. It seems obvious to me that in MLS the 4-3-3 requires a dominate CB. Like a top 4 in the league type CB. Maybe push Moor or Marvel out to the wings. I get rid of Freeman or Zapata (one but not both… unless upgrades can be found) and Marshall. Of course, its more than highly possible that I am misreading what OP is try to accomplish since this current squad sucks so hard.
     
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  7. Big Chil in Denver

    Sep 10, 2009
    Denver, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Been wanting to get to this thread. I'm in the camp that Jamie Smith should be brought back at a reduced salary, say $80k. He's still one of our best players on the ball and at set pieces, combines well with others, would be a valuable sub. Lower minutes, less likelihood of injuries. He has a green card & wife & kid over here now, incentive for him to stay at a reduced price.
     
  8. Big Chil in Denver

    Sep 10, 2009
    Denver, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Retiring: Pablo

    Returning contracts:

    Casey, Cummings, Rivero, Castrillon, Cascio, Larentowicz, Pickens, Moor, Wynne, Mullan, O'Neill, Armstrong

    I don't know the contract status of these guys, but I would keep:

    Hendry Thomas (pending), Smith, Hill, Akpan, Nane, Zapata, Wallace

    On the bubble/upgrade:

    Thompson, Marshall, Freeman, Wahl

    Cut: Edu

    Needs: Striker corps that can finish. RB (Mullan?). CB MLS-starting-caliber.

    Re: the Zapata/Wallace pairing. Zapata's been quite good at getting forward, and at 32, he's still aggressively running down strikers from behind. I don't know what the team's plan for Wallace is, but you have a 23-year-old left-footed left back who started in the MLS Cup 2010, to groom for the future, maybe just one year behind/competing with Zapata at that spot. He essentially hasn't played in 2 years, but he's only 23. Assuming his injury will be healed by the start of next year, Zapata/Wallace/Moor/Wahl provide pretty good cover at left back.
     
  9. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    As far as I know, Casey's contract is up this year.
     
  10. Big Chil in Denver

    Sep 10, 2009
    Denver, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Thought his March 2011 renewal was a 3 year deal?
     
  11. Soaker888

    Soaker888 Member+

    Feb 21, 2012
    Denver
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Renegotiate. At $400k I see him as overpaid now given his performance this year and what seems to be a new era of injury-prone playing. Further, though he is a great target forward in the box and great at holding the ball deep, he lacks speed and agility that many great (or at least well paid) forwards possess have. I also would not be surprised if the RFO strongly considered trading him, though as a Denver native that may piss off a whole lot more fans than the Kimura trade did.
     
  12. Big Chil in Denver

    Sep 10, 2009
    Denver, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Depth Chart by Position for next year (assuming a 4-2-3-1):

    Casey​
    Cummings​
    Akpan​
    Cascio------------------Rivero------------------Castrillon​
    Smith-------------------Hill------------------Mullan​
    Larentowicz------------------Thomas​
    Nane------------------O'Neill​
    Zapata------------------Wynne------------------Moor------------------Mullan​
    Wallace------------------Marshall------------------Palguta--------------Moor​
    Moor----------------Wahl------------------Wahl----------------------------Freeman​
    Wahl------------------------------------------------------------------------Armstrong​
    This is just how I'd put it now. We definitely need 2 quality CB's so that Wynne & Moor can be used at RB & LB when necessary. Hopefully O'Neill and Armstrong are able to prove themselves good enough to add first team minutes, overtaking the need for Freeman & Wahl, for example. ​
    Assuming Thomas pans out, the 4 CDM's look pretty deep. ​
    We could probably use another winger and central attacker. The only depth is Mullan on the right, and the oft-injured Smith on the left. ​
    On the forward front, these guys need to get their finishing touch back and we need to add someone with the potential to finish. ​
     
  13. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That 3 year renewal was in March of 2010. So it covered the 2010, 2011, and 2012 seasons.
     
  14. fortcollins

    fortcollins Member+

    St. Louis City SC
    Apr 12, 2006
    Fort Collins
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    For what it's worth, here are the salaries as of August 1, 2012 for your list of fence-sitters:
    Freeman $105,000 salary, 110,792 guaranteed
    Marshall $90,000 salary, $93,250 guaranteed
    Thompson $87,188 salary, $95, 313 guaranteed
    Wahl $65,000 salary, $86,087 guaranteed

    The 2012 MLS minimum salary is $44,000 for the first 24 roster spots. The difference between salary and guaranteed compensation mostly is in signing bonuses, apportioned out over life of the contract. The cost above MLS base salary to keep all four players is only $171,188. In my book, that tips the scales in favor of keeping them, unless a significant upgrade is available or unless they have trade value to upgrade another position.
     
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  15. 22SteveD

    22SteveD Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jun 1, 2011
    Denver
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Freeman $105,000 salary, 110,792 guaranteed Age 27
    Marshall $90,000 salary, $93,250 guaranteed. Age 37
    Thompson $87,188 salary, $95, 313 guaranteed. Age 28
    Wahl $65,000 salary, $86,087 guaranteed. Age 28

    Have to factor in age and ability to play our new style, I can only see maybe 1 of Wahl or Freeman being kept.
     
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  16. Big Chil in Denver

    Sep 10, 2009
    Denver, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Thanks for the salary updates guys. Good info for this & offseason.
     
  17. Soaker888

    Soaker888 Member+

    Feb 21, 2012
    Denver
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Take out all four iffy (yeah, that's an opinion) players and bring in two younger, promising, already performing players for the same price could be a tempting move. Substitute or add as many other players to that list as you see reasonable.
     
  18. fortcollins

    fortcollins Member+

    St. Louis City SC
    Apr 12, 2006
    Fort Collins
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Here's the problem I see with that approach. By seeking players who are both younger and more experienced, the pool is limited to players who would be too expensive and who would not likely be available in exchange for Colorado's four players.

    Take Brek Shea (FCD) for example. Shea's base salary is $310,000, with guaranteed compensation of $354,000. Compare that to the four mentioned above, whose combined base salary is $347,188, and whose combined guaranteed compensation is $385,442. Even though Shea seemingly has been on the outs with FCD, would FCD likely trade him for the Colorado Four? And if Shea came to Colorado, would he improve the team? How would Colorado be able to fill the gaps left by the four players, with less than one MLS minimum salary difference available to do so?

    Similar analysis could be done for other MLS players who might fit the criteria. I suspect the conclusion would be the same: while the proposed players fit the criteria, a successful trade would not be likely.

    That's why I see at least three of the four remaining with the Rapids. (I see Marshall as the exception, both because of his salary and age.) Any players available in trade for these four players likely would be different names and faces, with essentially similar skills.
     
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  19. COMtnGuy

    COMtnGuy Member+

    Apr 5, 2012
    Higher than you
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Hey RFO, Someone at SI did your homework for you, maybe you can pull your head out of your A&$ and maybe make a trade before this offseason.

    Elsewhere, former MLS All-Star Juan Toja being selected by the New England Revolution through the allocation order made sense in that with the roster freeze date coming in less than two weeks, the Revs were not going to have another chance to use their place atop the order. Whether Toja actually is in the team's plans or he is just being used as a trade chip remains to be seen, though. There is a log-jam of attack-minded midfielders in New England, between Toja, Benny Feilhaber, Lee Nguyen, Ryan Guy and Kelyn Rowe, and there is only room for so many cooks in the kitchen.


    Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/avi_creditor/09/03/mls-power-rankings-week-26/index.html#ixzz25Rnws7nN
     
  20. Dom. FC

    Dom. FC Member+

    May 10, 2004
    Central US
    If Toja is able to play the way he did when he was in MLS before he would be an immediate upgrade to the line up, one of Osceravo's guys would end up sitting though, probably Rivero.
     
  21. Centennial

    Centennial Member+

    Apr 4, 2003
    Centennial
    I would try to trade first then cut those no one wants.

    Trade:
    Cummings
    Edu
    Hill
    Thomson
    Wahl
    Smith
    Marshall

    I would keep Wynne only because he is very very fast and sure he had a gaffe again but with the proper coaching that can be corrected... his speed is definitely worth keeping him. I think our forward situation is much more critical to fix. We should have been able to put at least 2 goals in the net against Portland last weekend ... We never should have lost that game against that sorry excuse of a team. It wasn't the defense that lost if for us... it was our lack of finishing period.

    Try to work out a blockbuster trade with 2 or 3 teams ... heck... even put in a DP spot and try to get 2 good forwards out of the deal. Cummings could be good with proper support but does not work well in our new formation. Edu is over the hill with no desire left. Hill, does show some promise but hasn't found a way to start even with all the injuries we have had. Thomson is a thug with very little talent. Wahl was a mistake. and Smith has been injured too many times and hasn't found his form and is another casualty of our new formation. Since Mr. Bravo isn't going anywhere soon and Pareja is his little beotch... I don't see any other option other than making significant changes to the lineup.
     
  22. Soaker888

    Soaker888 Member+

    Feb 21, 2012
    Denver
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    I would be tempted to keep Cummings and get rid of Casey. Not sure he is serving the Rapids in his current incarnation, and with Cummings' speed he is more likely to be worth more ove the next couple seasons. This is mainly because Casey's salary is over $400k. Some shopping could be done with that. I like what Casey brings to the team (passion/hard work, ball holding, target in the box) but our lack of speed out front is too disconcerting to me.
     
  23. jayd8888

    jayd8888 Member+

    Aug 22, 2006
    Denver CO
    If they do try to fire the whole team and not the "leadership" say hello to the five year rebuilding plan.
     
  24. Centennial

    Centennial Member+

    Apr 4, 2003
    Centennial
    Isn't that exactly where they put themselves with their p#$$ poor performance this year????

    We just entered the first year of yet another 12 year plan
     
  25. Totoro

    Totoro Member+

    Dec 3, 2009
    Colorado
    From a fortcollins post in the 9/5 game thread:
    Backline issues have been mentioned constantly, but what do people have in mind besides someone other than Marshall for depth? Is there a reason why Moor and Wynne can't return to being a reasonable starting pair if the Rapids can figure out what they're doing at fullback?

    I don't really like Moor as a fullback; I thought his weakness at centerback was his lack of speed, and moving him out on a wing brings it more to the fore.
     
    Sports Yak and COMtnGuy repped this.

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