And then those "good clubs like Minnesota United, Indy Eleven, and San Antonio Scorpions" will be scooped up MLS leaving the NASL with a hodgepodge of AA and AAA markets and the Cosmos.
How will O'Brien feel about investing $300m to $400m to be a part-owner in MLS LLC in the future? I'm sorry but this reminds me of Joey Saputo's brilliant strategy. "Screw you Don - I'm not paying $10m. Go ahead and sell the franchise to Toronto" "$30m?!! You must be kidding? TFC only paid $10m 2 years ago" "What - now it's $40m? We will pay that but it has to include the stadium upgrade costs. Here is my proposal" "Okay Uncle. Here's the $40m cheque". And Garber didn't need to use the Cosmos to get a 'big money payout'. The NY MLS was worth $100m and many suitors were willing to pay it.
It's called making a bad business decision, missing the boat, reading the market wrong, acting emotionally, overestimating your own hand, not understanding your own product, mistiming the market, etc... ....it is all about the stadium now. Only chance they have for the future, that's would be their only legit chip for a long, long, long time, and we all know how hard it is to get a soccer stadium approved...any stadium. That's their shot.....and/or the sheiks just deciding that it isn't worth their time anymore, and the 100 mill they gave MLS isn't a big deal. Even then, without a stadium and some compliance NYC still could easily be on the outside looking in.
Well the NY Cosmos would be on the outside looking in, NYCFC are just fine. They already paid the crazy $100 million.
Well, that was my point...unless something crazy happens the ship has sailed. It's all about the stadium now, and when it comes to stadiums getting appeoved for soccer, at any level, I am always cynical as hell until shovel hits dirt.
MLS has a long long time to go to get to expansion fee values that high. If you think there were many "suitors" with a 100 million check in their pocket for MLS i have a bridge to sell you in Brooklyn.
Is Louisville anymore AA or AAA than Columbus? Or San Diego? Or San Francisco? Or Austin? These are cities, they are not static. They grow and shrink and just because an MLS club is in the neighborhood doesn't mean NASL can't be. Chicago, New York, LA, and Toronto could support NASL teams as well. And you say MLS will scoop all those teams up, and I think they will, but you say it like its going to happen over night and its not. Its going to take 5-10 years at least. And soccer, as a sport, is growing in America. That works in NASL's favor as well as MLS'. .
By tradition and current standing, Louiseville is a AAA city. Their only professional sports team is a member of the International League, which is AAA baseball. Yes: NHL & MLS Yes: NFL & MLB Yes: NFL & MLB No! None of the Big Five have set up shop. Of course they have the "amateur" athletics at Texas. And it takes a very long time to get over the stigma of being a minor league city. Using Louisville as your example, especially in the general midwest/upper south area. Even more so in proximity to the "big" markets in the region. And it takes a very long time to get over the stigma of being a minor league city. Especially in the general midwest/upper south area. Even more so in proximity to the "big" markets in the region. On paper, sure they can. In reality? They won't. At least not at the level that NASL wet-dreamers like to think. An intelligent owner is not going to put his NASL team up against the local MLS team for fans unless he is intentionally taking a loss at the gate because the casual fan will go for the brand recognition of the "major league" over attending a minor league game any day of the week. Casual fans are the bread and butter at the gate. Diehards are few and far between. I'm not saying it's impossible - look at the AHL Wolves, for example. But it's pretty damn hard to do with established sports. You're naive if you believe it's less difficult with soccer. Teams that draw well in the NASL only do so relative to minor league sports. I never said it would be overnight. But you're mistaken if you think any savvy owners would invest in (traditional) major league markets believing that MLS will never come calling. Hell, most of these guys are hoping that they get to answer that call before they lose too much. Most of these guys know that minor league soccer - or any minor league sport, for that matter - is a tough sell in a major league town. It's not just the other soccer leagues that they are competing with here. Again, causal fans are the bread and butter at the gate; minor league sports only have the gate. Rah-rah-rah. Go Fight Win. Never said it wasn't. And it has nothing to do with a market being major league or minor league...
It's not going to hold at 24---it will only take a few years (2,3,4?) to breathe and then continue to expand. This leaague will eventually reach 28 or 30 teams. The US is a continent in size.
LOLOL Totally missed the point. I wasn't comparing Louisville to any of those other cities. Just to Columbus. What I was asking was if any of those cities are any less Pro ready than Columbus? Columbus isn't glamorous. It isn't a large city, comparatively. There's nothing spectacular about it. And having just a pro-hockey team, the former smallest major league in America, doesn't mean all that much. MLS isn't likely to go to San Francisco because they have San Jose. They aren't likely to go to Louisville because as you say they might not view it as major league. They aren't likely to go to Austin and San Antonio. Austin is the same size as Columbus and the UT support is above almost all pro-sports teams in America. Columbus has proven a MLS team can work in a major college town, too. What I'm saying is that even if MLS goes to 32 teams, there's enough cities of comparable sizes to a lot of the MLS ones, to build another major league with. As for your bububub tradition stigma blah blah blah what a bunch of crap. Traditionally, Manchester City was a nobody. Traditionally, America didn't give a damn about soccer. Keep clinging to your traditions though like they mean something.
Right, but they were going to pause at 16, 18, and 20 as well. At some point, Charlie Brown needs to realize what's going on and not try to kick the football.
Then what was the point? You're the one that said "Is Louisville any more AAA than (list of cities)?" Professional and major league are not interchangeable terms. Minor league sports in which the players are paid are by definition professional. Louisville is "Pro ready" because they have professional sports teams in the minor leagues. Des Moines is "Pro ready" because we have AAA teams in Baseball, basketball, and hockey plus the AFL. These things do matter to the people actually making the decisions. If it was up to me, MLS would be in more cities that aren't jam packed with the other major leagues. One of the (many) reasons Portland and Salt Lake do awesome at the gate because their only major league competition is the NBA, which is primarily the off season. But the risk is that the public perception - the so-called casual fan - will be negative if you have too many Portlands and too few New Yorks. The established, congested proven major league markets are necessary to create the major league perception. The Arena Football League suffered from this issue before its bankruptcy and continues to suffer from it since its rebirth. I love having the AFL here, but at the same time I know the Barnstormers contribute to the "minor league football" image, despite the AFL being the major league of indoor football. Agreed. Only two leagues inhabit two cities in the Bay area - the NFL and MLB. I doubt we'll ever see one of the other three or even a lower major league like AFL or MLL do that. EXACTLY!!!!! And that is what matters. Nothing we say here matters in the grand scheme of MLS expansion. Their perception of the market and their perception of the public's perception of the market are what matter. There is a reason no deep pocketed owner in Topeka has come forward to land an MLS team and it isn't because such an individual doesn't exist. It's because a deep pocketed owner in Topeka knows that his bid would be rejected due to the league's perception of the market. Agree. It will be one or the other due to proximity. And THE Ohio State University is right up there with them. I hate both teams. The sky is blue. Is there a point related to the conversation? Never said it couldn't or wouldn't. Columbus does not really work as an example for this argument though because they were an original franchise. Hunt wanted Columbus for some reason, so the league went to Columbus. Name an instance where that has happened during the current expansion era... I definitely agree with this. The NFL has 32 teams. MLB has 30. The NHL has 30. The NBA has 30. Each league represents 25-28 individual cities. All four have 2 teams in NY (3 for NHL). Three of them have two teams in LA. Two of them have two teams in the Bay. But the league has shown that it will hedge its bets by sticking with proven major league markets, for the most part. Again, Columbus is a different animal born of a different time; the Crew are kind of the Packers of MLS in that sense. BTW, discounting Green Bay, who is the definition of unique in American major league sports, there are not that many cities with only one Big Four team remaining to choose from. The Baltimore Orioles, Sacramento Kings, Memphis Grizzlies, and Carolina Hurricans are the only US examples that comes to mind. Calgary, Edmonton, Winnipeg, and Ottawa in Canada, I guess. Man City is not a valid example. We are not talking about England or the impact of an oil shiek's money on the second team in a major market. Our conversation is about placing a Major League Soccer team in an American minor league market. Who gives a ******** about my traditions? Minor league vs major league sports towns are not my traditions, they are the perceptions of people running the various leagues. Stop thinking like a fan and start thinking like an executive, if you really want to understand how expansion will work going forward.
In modern sports, what really distinguishes major sports leagues from minor leagues is television money. I cannot begin to imagine why any major television/cable outlet would invest major bucks in the NASL while MLS is following the NFL's pattern of broadcasting/cablecasting games on multiple networks, cable platforms and internet platforms. Without the influx of big league television/cable money. the NASL will never become a rival to MLS.
Baltimore has the Ravens, and you should add the San Antonio Spurs, Jacksonville Jaguars, and Oklahoma City Thunder.
Shit, cannot believe I forgot about the Ravens. Like I said, all I could think of off the top of my head. I'm not a very big NBA fan and the Jags make themselves disappear from the public conscious by sucking so bad.
Technically, what makes a market major or minor is defined not by current residents of pro sports, but that markets size and influence in a region. Louisville is the #50 media/tv market in North America. By comparison Buffalo is #51. So, which city is a major? Both, or neither? Green Bay Wisconsin in #70. Based on market size, Louisville is actually large enough to support a big division professional sports club, if the other factors for starting up there are favorable. What does this comment mean, exactly? If i am the NASL i am looking for markets that are large enough to warrent larger scale invetsment in pro soccer franchise(s) that are also underserved by major profesional sports. Along with a few big markets where the market may not be served well. San Fransisco/Oakland Boston (in city) Detroit Cleveland Milwaukee St. Louis San Diego Cincinnati Birmingham Las Vegas Austin New Orleans Memphis/Nashville Louisville Des Moines Tucson Phoenix Quebec City Calgary Winnipeg Hamilton If NASL can get into half of those markets successfully, they will be at 20-24 teams (assuming MLS picks a few off along the way) Essentially, i am saying there is a lot of room to grow in this country with good level pro soccer. Given thr right investors and conditions in market.[/quote][/quote]
Green Bay is an anomoly due to its history. I doubt that any major league will ever consider a Green Bay ever again. Buffalo is another hold over from a bygone era. The Bills have an active interest in Toronto; they may be stuck in Buffalo, but they have repeatedly catered to Toronto fans and have been in constant rumors of relocation/split scheduling. Possibly. I don't have anything against Louisville, I really don't. I think it's a fine USL or NASL city. The city is a proven market for minor league teams. I don't think it'd necessarily be a bad MLS (or Big Four) city either. But the people with the money and power seem less than enthusiastic about Kentucky. It means that while they draw well enough, they are not drawing at major league levels. SJ doesn't count because of stadium limitations and Chivas does not count because they've done nothing but ******** up at the ownership level since Day 1 (hopefully to be rectified soon). And I mean in the MLS 2.0+ era, not the first decade or so. Agreed. As long as long as they beat both MLS and USL Pro to the punch. At the minor league level, whomever gets the market first wins. Assuming of course that they manage to connect with the fan base via marketing and competent ownership. Outside of BS and a few diehards, most people do not see a difference between NASL and USL Pro. Casual fans surely won't. Minor league is minor league. Neither is on TV. Neither is MLS. Possibly, if it is far enough away from SJ to draw fans that don't want to go to SJ. Still, unless they nail everything they'll have a hard time. Even more so here. If the Revs somehow get a stadium closer to town, any NASL efforts would be screwed. Absolutely. But the way that the NASL has been going about it is asinine. Trying to squeeze into MLS markets is not the right approach. Claiming to compete with MLS is not the right approach. Goin g head-to-head with the (now) MLS-backed USL Pro is not the right approach. Letting teams play half a season and still be eligible for the championship is definitely not the right approach. NASL seems to want to be the WHA of American soccer. As it stands, the NASL is on its way to becoming the IHL while USL Pro is on track to become the AHL. Guess who won that battle...
[quote="aetraxx7, post: 29700107, member: 64173" Absolutely. But the way that the NASL has been going about it is asinine. Trying to squeeze into MLS markets is not the right approach. Claiming to compete with MLS is not the right approach. Goin g head-to-head with the (now) MLS-backed USL Pro is not the right approach. Letting teams play half a season and still be eligible for the championship is definitely not the right approach. ...[/quote] What market have they tried to get into and compete with MLS in other than New York? They would have had to been crazy to say no to the Cosmos. They have never claimed to be competing with MLS, in fact they have always said the opposite. USL owners didn't go with nasl because they couldn't or didn't want to try and meet some of the higher sanctioning criteria. If that league wants to be an actual backed farm reserve system for mls so be it, but it will limit its growth. So nasl is hardly asinine for trying to be better than usl
At this point the only way the Cosmos get into MLS is on their own terms. What I mean by that is that the Cosmos basically own the NASL, Open Cup and manage to win the CONCACAF Champions League and get to the Club World Cup. If the Cosmos were able to generate that kind of success the league would have to go crawling to them to get them to join MLS. It would be Garber's worst nightmare because an NASL team succeded where all MLS teams have failed. However that more than likely wont happen. I've always gotten the feeling that the Cosmos overvauled their brand when they were talking to MLS and it eventually cost them a shot at joining. The NASL's best teams are going to be poached by MLS over the next decade or two. If San Antonio, Indianapolis, etc do well in the NASL you can bet that MLS will come knocking to get them to join and I'd bet my paycheck that virtually all NASL teams, with the exception of the Cosmos, would jump at the chance to join MLS. MLS has the greater leverage in getting teams into the league versus them staying put due to the fact that the league is in the ascendency in terms of market value, revenue and fan exposure.
Spot on. This isn't just a BS issue. It's an issue with everything on the net. Incredibly small groups thinking things matter more, or are more important than they are in the real world. The net completely distorts their understanding of reality.
I just do not get why NASL diehards think that their league matters any more than USL Pro - especially now that the affiliation is a thing. Googling articles on MLS brings up USL Pro stories now thanks to the affiliation. That's effectively increasing their online media exposure. USL Pro markets can now use the relationship with MLS as a marketing tool to reach new fans - casual fans. Their overall public perception is on the rise because they are linked to MLS. People recognize that their minor league team is an MLS minor league team and not, let's say, a semi-pro MLS wannabe. What has the NASL done to counter? Trot out the Cosmos? Please. As if a few glam stories, aimed at the local market for the most part, can compete with hitching your wagon to the MLS brand. Split seasons, two champions per year (followed by a really for real league champion!), claiming that NASL teams will routinely beat MLS teams in the USOC and win CONCACAF*, pro/rel, and other shenanigans are probably not the best way to gain media exposure. It's all about the public perception - the general public, not the BS public. Every time they trot this stuff out, they lose legitimacy in the eyes of the general fan. As the Rock used to say, "Know your role and shut your mouth." USL Pro knows their role. They've embraced it. Latching onto MLS as their minor league has given them new found strength. Unfortunately the NASL has been left without a lifeline. Their best teams have already gone to MLS. The most successful among them, aside from the pigheaded Cosmos, are batting their eyelashes at MLS. On top of that, MLS is actively working on plans to get into a couple more of their current markets. Where does that leave the NASL? It's an unaffiliated minor league in a sport that is still suffering from severe growing pains... Don't get me wrong: I support all three pro leagues. I want all three pro leagues to do well. But I'm not going to look at a yellow rock and claim its gold. It's a yellow rock. Minor league is still minor league. Back to the original question: The MLS owners and governors will not sell the Chivas USA franchise to the Cosmos group as a third New York team. Period. I doubt they'd even sell it to the Cosmos owners and keep it in LA. Something happened between the Cosmos ownership and MLS; we don't know what exactly, but it seems safe to say that they will be blackballed for the foreseeable future. *And if it happens once, swell. If it happens repeatedly without teams -more than just, let's say, the Cosmos - going bankrupt in the process then maybe MLS does need to reevaluate their business model.