Is "Felipão" meant to be a nickname for Luiz Felipe Scolari? Like I said in the tactics thread, my team consists of players more suited to counter-attacking. I wouldn't say that my team is born to play ugly but balance and structure were important. I'm not saying my team was intended to be the best to watch but I feel that it can play some entertaining football in patches. I feel that Enzo Bearzot would be the ideal coach for this team because this team has tactical awareness and structure yet he could get it to be more confident in possession and attack teams who are meant to be better technically or place greater emphasis on possession. The formation is ideal for him too.
Thanks again Billy for the AVG tip. Installed a free trial and it found a Trojan Horse which it put in the Virus Vault and I've now deleted it. Crossing my fingers that it's sorted now but AVG does seem to give extra identity protection too to prevent hackers taking advantage I think. Definately my worst decision of the entire draft to click that link to the supposed blog! Back to the draft - Gregoriak if you're reading this (or anyone else) do you think a good comparison to my use of Finney and Baggio could be when Germany had Littbarski and Rummenigge supporting a striker around 82-83, including at times in the 82 World Cup? Finney would play like Littbarski to a large extent I feel. I'd generally be using Michael Laudrup in a more advanced role than say Felix Magath played, but it's the roles of Finney and Baggio that I feel would be similar. If we were not attempting to manage/coach the teams ourselves but selecting someone to do it like Dor02 suggested Bearzot, then I think Michel Hidalgo could be my choice. He would support and encourage the style of play that fits the players. I could've gone with Michels or Clough for a bit of added discipline but I'd expect they might prefer a more conventional shape to the team, and keep a more constant shape rather than using my 3 formations. Clough admired Tom Finney though and also John Charles so if I'd got Charles he might've been the choice. As Johan Cruyff got banned, he'd be another option that would fit the players - playing something like his Barcelona Dream Team, including Laudrup. Hoddle and Liedholm would share elements of the Guardiola role I suppose. Baggio would be the Stoichkov replacement and likewise Fontaine for Romario. Anybody else got a coach/manager in mind for their team? Beckenbauer as player/manager or Jock Stein for Fraser? I was wondering if Comme would go for Bill Nicholson (that got me thinking again whether two other Tottenham managers Burkinshaw and Vennables could be my alternatives to Hidalgo)...
Perhaps I'm biased, but putting Šuker on the same level as Fletcher and Materazzi (good players indeed, but nothing outstanding) and saying he was not a great player, is very surprising and unbelievable to me. Šuker was not Eusebio or Ronaldo, but at his prime he was easily one the truly greatest player on his position in the world. Someone who was key to Croatia's success in the 90s and one of the main parts for Real's revival is several levels ahead of the other highlighted players, and who can survive a battle against other great strikers.
If I have Zito on my team, instead of Monti, can I still win it? ASF said my Mobnti pick sealed it for me. --------------Shilton---------- Kaltz----Da Guia----Kohler----Camacho ---------------Zito--------------------- Figo---------Neeskens------Dzagic --------Mueller------Sanchez--------- Neesken alone was not enough defensively on my midfield. I wanted a player who could protect the defense and could join the attack if necessary. I took Zito as a safety pick. I was unfamiliar with Zito. I took him because he was highly rated and I could get to him at that point. Clodoaldo was my alternative choice. I also considered Gattuso, Keane, Davids and Van Hanegem. Gattuso probably isn't really an all-timer and he is weak offensively. Van Hanegem would have given me a great passer, but Neeskens would then need to play a more defensive game and I need him to support the strikers. Anyway, Van Hanegem was taken before I could get to him. I tried to draft Redondo, Matthaus or Rijkaard on the 10th round. I thought Redondo or Matthaus would have been perfect on my team.
Yes, I know that Davor Suker is not at the level of guys like Fletcher and Materazzi. Suker sure was a very good player with some great matches for the national team. But at club level he was just alright. And, after looking all the CFs selected in the draft, to me he is still the worst. Gabriel BATISTUTA, Jean-Pierre PAPIN, Jimmy GREAVES, RONALDO, José ALTAFINI, Jimmy McGRORY, ROMÁRIO, Gunnar NORDAHL, Didier DROGBA EUSÉBIO, Andriy SHEVCHENKO, Just FONTAINE, Ferenc PUSKÁS and Sándor KOCSIS were all better than him, to me. So that's why I placed Suker together with Fletcher and Materazzi in the group of weak spots. Just to clarify. I never said they were in the same tier, just that they were weak spots.
Monti definitely bumped you up into the Top 3 for me. It was an inspired choice, and he fit perfectly into your team. For me, the biggest thing was that it allowed you to "realistically" play with 2 forwards.
According to what you wrote in the tactical thread regarding Baggio and Finney: Absolutely! Littbarski although known as a primarily right-footed player was also able to hit very precise and sharp crosses with his left foot. He could be used on either side. In his early 1980s incarnation he was cast as a typical winger with focus on beating his full back and the next center back and then either going for the goal himself or providing a cross to a central striker or Rummenigge coming in from the other side. By the late-1980s, Littbarski had become a #10 'playmaker' type for his club Cologne. 'Playmaker' is not the right word, though, it wasn't his style to collect a ball from deep and then hit a long pass over 50 meters or so. Vaguely it was more his winger role transplanted into central midfield, i.e. beating a multitude of players via dribbling in central midfield and then either addressing a 'deadly' pass to a striker or going for the goal himself. In the timeframe you are addressing (1982-83), when playing for Bayern, Rummenigge had licence to roam wherever he wanted offensively. Bayern usually operated with only 2 forwards: Rummenigge and the classical center forward Dieter Hoeness as offensive anchor. For his club, Rummenigge would be seen everywhere, be it left wing, right wing, in the box or in central midfield; supported by the full backs Udo Horsmann on the left and Wolfgang Dremmler on the right. For Germany, with more offensive options available, his role was a bit less free when Germany played with 3 forwards: a right winger (Littbarski), a left winger (Rummenigge) and a center forward (Hrubesch). Behind them two offensive midfielders (Magath, Müller or Breitner) as well as two offensive full backs (Briegel and Kaltz). When only 2 forwards started, Rummenigge usually was also keen on more mobility, popping up here and there. Later, when Rudi Völler emerged, the two often interchanged a lot, as both were able to function as classic wingers (= dribble + cross), as wingers focusing on getting into the box or as central strikers.
I totally agree with ASF that Monti was a perfect pick and fit to your team. But, I would still think that your team is one of the best if you have taken Zito. I don't know if it is because I'm brazilian or I'm being bias, but Zito was a really great player. He was the anchor or DH in front of Brazil's defense and was the guy that helped to do the dirty job behind while Brazil had an awesome offensive line like Garrincha-Didi-Vavá-Pelé-Zagallo. And he was used to the job because he was already doing all that to the great Pelé's Santos with Dorval-Mengálvio-Coutinho-Pelé-Pepe. And he knew too how to play with the ball in the feet. In the second goal against Czechoslovakia in WC'62, Zito is the guy that starts the counter-attack, gives a great pass to Amarildo and gets inside the area to do the goal with a header. I know that this is just a moment or flash by Zito but he sure knew how to play with the ball. So, Yes, he would still make your team great, because I think he would give the amount needed of defensive force in your defensive line to give more freedom and creation to your midfielders line (Figo-Neeskens-Dzagic) and so having a more attacking Neeskens, what would be great. Rijkaard would fit the same role equally great. Redondo and Matthaus would give to your attack more force and also more quality to your offensive game and plays, being a more dynamic attack. But I think your defensive game would be just a little weakened, just a little, because their (Redondo and Matthaus) marking awareness is somewhat lower than Zito, Monti and Rijkaard. So, Redondo and Matthaus would give you a better offense but Monti, Zito and Rijkaard give a more balanced and even team between defense and offense. Anyway, any of the 5 would still be a great team.
NT football is the hardest level and I disagree with most people with place more emphasis on club records. There's a reason why the likes of Di Stefano and Best are rated lower than Pele and Maradona. As for Suker, he's got a proven record at international tornaments and despite all the nationalities here, this draft to me represents World Cup football than something at a CL level.
Well, NT football is a hard level, but the hardest? I couldn't make such a statement with such conviction. CL is pretty hard too as a Libertadores. I wouldn't despise them that easily. Usually, I see in the world of soccer that a player has more games for his clubs than his NT, so I think that It's more accurate to see a player's consistency by his club records and achievements than a fewer games by NT. Paolo Rossi had an awesome WC'82 but that doesn't make him a legend because to be a legend you have to see all his aspects, not only National Team or just Club. Messi never played really well with his NT but that make him bad? No, because he has awesome seasons with Barcelona. Ademir da Guia never played well for NT but yet he is regarded here in Brazil as one of the best attacking creative mid ever. So, to me of course, It's the whole thing that has to be considered. And for Suker, playing just one WC great isn't enough. Croatia was third, It's nothing like Suker had led them to WC championship like a real Legend would do. He still is to me the worst striker in the draft.
One more thing, I really think that your examples are just poorly done or misplaced. Pelé, Maradona, Di Stefano and Best, all of them had outstanding club careers and the WC performance enters as a factor that gives the edge to one or another to be the best, in this case Pelé and Maradona. But It's not only the WC performance that built the great fame behind Pelé and Maradona. To be a great player like Pelé, Cruyff, Maradona and Romário you have to construct a Career of Success for both club and national team. Things that Suker never accomplished. So, next time, I ask to you to build a better argument, so it may be possible for me or other people think that a good player like Suker was really at the level of great players like Shevchenko, Batistuta, Drogba, Romário and Papin.
Yes, I agreed with dor02 that interantional football is the highest level in football and performance in it should be a bigger emphasis. However, most players only played limited numbers of interantional games. I do not know the average numbers of caps in this draft. I would say 60 to 70 caps per players. Each of them probably played approximately 10 to 15 games per year. Perhaps, 5 to 8 of those games in a single month were crammed into a single month of football during the final buildup and the actual tournament(Copa America, European Championship and the World Cup Finals). I felt club football is more about consistency.
Here's a comparison between the teams picked during the All-Time Draft (2006) and this year's Sheep Draft by participants in both drafts. ARGENTINE SOCCER FAN Sheep Draft "ASC JUNIORS" ……………………..Carrizo ..........Julio Cesar……Passarella (c) Zanetti…………………………………Marzolini ……………Rossi………Edwards ………………...Riquelme………...Boniek …………Sarosi ………………….Batistuta All-Time Draft "ASF ALL-TIME VIRTUOSO" B) SQUAD AND GENERAL CHARACTERISTICS OF MY PLAYERS SEPP MAIER (Goalkeeper): Great reflexes and ability to stop the most difficult shots. Known to excel in big matches. LILIAN THURAM (Defender): Powerful physically, solvent defensively, fast, quick, reliable, and with good ball skills. MARIUS TRESOR (Defender): A libero with superior intelligence, physical strength, a fighting spirit and quality skills. KARLHEINZ FORSTER (Defender): Solid defender, intelligent, great man-marker, practical with the ball and with a first-rate air game. ELBIO PAVONI (Defender): Temperamental defender, physically and mentally strong, excellent marker, dangerous joining the attack, powerful left footed shot, and with an uncanny ability to save goals as the goalline. ANTONIO RATTIN (Midfielder): A strong natural leader and motivator, great pace, strong defender and destroyer, dominant air game, solid passing in midfield. 'CHARRO' MORENO (Midfielder/Forward): Skilful, excellent creator and finisher, lethal finisher with both feet as well as with his headers, outstanding leadership qualities, great on recovery and capable of dominating a match. ZIZINHO (Midfielder/Forward): A complete player with outstanding ball skills, a master of passing and organizing, with great pace, excellent air game, scoring ability, and a good marker. ROBERTO RIVELINO (Midfielder): An artist with amazing ball control, great creativity, a powerful shot, and a dangerous on dead balls. GARRINCHA (Forward): An extraordinary dribbler, one of the few true geniuses with the ball, his unique skills are unmatched. A great creator and capable of carrying a team. JOSEF BICAN (Forward): A prolific goalscorer, equally dangerous with both feet, fast and lethal. DARK SAVANTE Sheep Draft 1. ----------------Plánicka ----------------Ayala--- Franklin ------------------Lawler------------------------Forster -----------------Sammer --------------Jairzinho--- Zizinho- Rivaldo---- Keizer ------------------ Ronaldo 2. ----------------Plánicka ----------------Ayala--- Franklin ------------------Lawler------------------------Forster -----------------Sammer -------------------- Zizinho ----------------Jairzinho-------------------------- Keizer ---------------------------Rivaldo --------------------- Ronaldo 3. ----------------Plánicka ----------------Ayala--- Franklin ------------------Lawler------------------------Forster --------------------Sammer ------------------- Zizinho------------ Rivaldo -------------------------Jairzinho---- Ronaldo------------- Keizer All-Time Draft basic formation --------------------Kahn -------------Nesta-------Campbell Gerets---------------------------------Byrne ---------------------Sammer --------Neeskens------------Edwards ---------------------Cubillas -----------Ronaldo----------Romario -----------------------Kahn -------------Nesta---Sammer---Campbell Gerets--------Neeskens---Edwards------Byrne -----------------------Cubillas ---------------Ronaldo--------Romario EXCAPE GOAT Sheep Draft -------------------------Peter Shilton---------- Manfred Kaltz----Jürgen Kohler---Domingos Da Guia----José Antonio Camacho ---------------------------Luis Monti---------------- Luis Figo----------------Johan Neeskens--------Dragan Dzagic --------------Hugo Sanchez-------Gerd Mueller------ All-Time Draft -----------------------Jennings------------------ Carlos Alberto------Zmuda--------McGrath--------Marzolini ---------------Varela----------Monte------------------ ----Socrates---------------------------Tostao-------- ---------------Di Stefano(C)-------Stoichkov----------- COMME Sheep Draft --------------------Zamora Andrade ----Santamaria-----Forster ---Jusufi -------------Bozsik -----------------------James Garrincha -----------Meazza-----------Morton ---------------------Greaves All-Time Draft ----------Schmeichel Charles---Chumpitaz---Happel --Blanchflower----Jonquet Kopa---Maradona---Schiaffino -------Greaves--Henry NICEPHORAS Sheep Draft --------------------------------Campos -----Djalma Santos------Ruggeri--------Koeman--------Maldini Andrade----------------Coluna------------------------Loustau -------------------------------Suarez--------- ------------Eusebio------------------------Sheva All-Time Draft -----------------------------Pfaff Suurbier-------Desailly---------Ignashevich----------Zambrotta ------------------------Keane------------Guardiola --Matthews------------------------------------------------Rensenbrink -------------------Hidegkuti ---------------------------------------Muller
It's not like Šuker was decent at club level, as you seem to imply in your last few posts. Besides having a great NT record, he had significant successes at club level as well. Remember that he was one of the most highly regarded players of the Spanish La Liga. As Excape Goat correctly pointed out, club level is more about consistency, something which Šuker can show you from his tenure in Spain (more consecutive times among the top scorers). Take a look at his record: Sevilla: 91/92: 6/22 92/93: 13/33 93/94: 24/34 94/95: 17/32 95/96: 16/32 Real Madrid: 96/97: 24/38 97/98: 10/29 98/99: 4/19 Besides the first and the last two seasons, his stats are quite respectable for a player who was supposedly a no show for his clubs. Especially great were his 93/94 and 96/97 seasons. In both of them he was the second highest top scorer, only behind legends like Romario and Ronaldo, who precisely during those seasons were going trough their best form ever. He was a world-class striker with an uncanny ability to score from every possible situation and position. There are just few players who could match (or surpass) him in pure finishing skills and sheer goal scoring abilities. He was that good at it. One of the things i admired the most about him was his outstanding ball control on long trough balls with his back turned to the ball (a la Bergkamp). Just look at his goal against Ireland in 2000, and you'll now what I mean. Besides that, he possessed good set up skills (look at the chances he created at Euro 1996, for instance) and excellent of the ball movements, which allowed him many times to be in the right place in the right time, but also to form with other players fatal tandems, most notably with Bokšić at international level and with Mijatović at club level. As for his performances for Croatia, obviously, he didn't take the WC by storm (very few were able to do so anyway), but was clearly among the best players, with Ronaldo and Thuram. Considering that Croatia was an underdog, his performances are even more stellar, of higher level than the majority of strikers you listed before. Of course, he was no Ronaldo, Romario or Eusebio, but nobody is either comparing him to them. He was still an all-timer on his own right, one of the best by position in his own generation, and in my opinion, better than some strikers you mentioned. For instance, why do you think someone like Drogba is ahead of him? He was a no show for his country in big tournaments, and his club career is not that much better than Šuker's. [FONT="]Howewer, despite being very skillfull and consistent, and despite the fact that he performed very well in the big international tournaments in the 90s, he doesn't take part of the most elite group names since Maradona's time, let alone in the entire football history. He simply didn't reign supreme long enough to be a truly contender for that status, and his overall impact doesn't match many others. Here I feel we think the same, don't you think? [/FONT]
I'd like to see what Drogba does at the World Cup this year. I haven't paid much attention to his performances at the African Cup of Nations but something tells me that he won't be a Bati or Romario and he would be more like the other guys you listed. Don't feel that I'm singling you out here because there have been posters who read too much into club level stats and not enough emphasis on NT level performance. One example was in the best Belgian players thread on BS's Belgium board. One person said that Marc Wilmots was better than Luc Nilis because of what he did for Belgium but another poster rated Nilis higher due to his club stats. I've heard of him but the only time he really saw matchtime at a major tornament was in the third place play-off at the 1974 World Cup. He was pretty good at Euro 96 and scored 45 goals in 69 NT matches. I guess we'll agree to disagree on him.
Suker's and Drogba's scoring records are fairly similar, both at club and international level. Suker did prove himself at to be a quality striker at Euro 96 and France 98 but then Drogba's club goals have arguably come in a stronger league and era (La Liga 91-99 vs Premier League 2004-present day). Guess it just really comes down to how you personally measure two players from different eras abilities.
My impression from watching them both play is that Suker was more clinical and much more efficient in finishing chances. Drogba is more overpowering physically, but he wastes more opportunities. I would rank Suker higher right now, altough Drogba obviously is not done yet.
Definitely agree, so taking into account their slightly different styles, in the context of this draft I suppose you'd have to look at the formation and tactics of their team to deduce who would be more useful. For example, a team with no creative midfielders and Suker upfront probably isn't going to be quite as effective as if they had Drogba, as Suker perhaps relies more on other players creating oppurtuinities for him while, in my view, Drogba is the better of the two players at creating chances for himself.
I think Suker was more inspirational so he could create himself space or just provide a clinical finish (be it a left-foot drive from the edge of the box or a subtle chip like in Euro 96). He was better with half-chances because of this but yeah in terms of taking down high balls and holding off players he wasn't as capable as Drogba. Suker overall for me though. He had a great first touch like Triton mentioned so controlling long range passes into his stride would be something he'd be excellent at - Drogba would be better at holding onto the ball under pressure though. I think Triton did have good creativity with Stojkovic especially plus the likes of Ardiles and Rummenigge who would also probably open up space for Suker just because of his own potential. Lamps>Gerrard had plenty of creativity and I would think that would benefit Drogba too although he may not fit in with Di Stefano as a perfect match (I still voted Lamps>Gerrard first).
I felt Drogba was a decent choice of striker for me. His ability to hold the ball and use his strength is equal to none at the moment. This only helps in his ability to link up with Zidane, Zico, and Di Stefano. But TBH I sort of rushed the pick and probably could've done better. I don't have any regrets though with choosing him.
I took Drogba for the 2000s draft on the 11th or 12th round, but some people still thought that it was a bad pick. I also had Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink, Vieri and Wiltord on my team. I struggled to select my starter on a 4-5-1 formation.