Yeah sure right, the Galaxy doesn't have pictures of Becks in their ads, their billboards, their websites, their promotional e-mails, etc. Yeah sure right, a WTA tournament doesn't put pictures of Sharapova in their ads, their billboards, their websites, their promotional e-mails, etc.
The Anna Kournikovas help market their sport. Now, BonnieLass made the good, plausible counterpoint: how many people who saw a picture of Kournikova actually went out and bought a ticket to a tennis match? But that's not the only effect a Kournikova has on the marketing and business end of the sport. She simply brought media attention to the sport. Her presence helped keep her sport in the news so when something else happened in tennis you were more likely to know about it. You were more likely to simply know a tournament was going on, maybe somewhere close to where you lived or on TV. I agree that there were limits to how much lasting effect she would've had but then along came someone else like Maria Sharapova, who actually won something. But Sharapova got the attention she did in part because there's already a number of people at least paying some attention. I really cannot believe that it is such an uphill battle here at Big Soccer to maintain the simple (as far as these things go) truth that "Sex Sells". Are we worried about going over the line and being crass? Fine, that's a legitimate concern; I for one have always been perfectly willing to discuss what rules-of-thumb we might adopt as a soccer community to avoid getting crass; that's a productive discussion. Arguing "first principles" (so to speak) about whether sex sells? Obviously people can disagree but that is very close to a futile discussion. Our resident Hope Solo Fan (Belgiu) posted this recent photo of Hope Solo. How damned hard is it to post something like this when there's an article on her? How damn much effort did it take to "fake" this or "stage" it? Honestly...
Well, we all know you have an advanced, civilized view of women -- pretty much for the most part, none of us would be here in this part of BigSoccer if we weren't, right?-- Well, I dare you to go post that crap over at Huffington Post and see how enlightened people over there will think you are.
1. On TV, soccer doesn't look sexy. In tennis, after every point the players stop running and there is a break in the action. You can get a closeup of their faces and since they face the net during the point, when you get replays of their reactions. Tennis is a good sport to tell a story during the match, because you see all of the emotions and the ups and downs and the crowd reacts and the drama builds. Tennis is an individual sport and they show the featured matches of the stars on TV. 2. If men want to see something sexy, they aren't going to watch women's sports. Men could find better looking women just going to the grocery store or the bookstore. If they want to see naked women they can go to a strip club or look at porn or watch a movie or cable TV. Sex can sell sex. Sex can sell something men already buy, like soap and cars and shaving cream. The last thing a man needs is more sexual titillation, because he's already exposed to it everywhere he goes. 3. Even if we limited it to women's sports, why would a man watch soccer just for sex? There are so many other women's sports that could be considered to have more sex appeal than soccer- tennis, golf, beach volleyball, indoor volleyball, softball, downhill skiing, snowboarding, basketball, bowling, billiards, swimming and diving, track and field, gymnastics, figure skating and ice dancing, car racing, X-games type sports, poker. I could name women in all of these sports that men consider to be sexy and good looking. If sex is the magic key to making women's sports a success at the pro level, many of these other sports would make it to the big time before WPS. Sex appeal only has a marginal affect, ultimately the fan must be interested in watching the soccer itself.
To me, this is perfect. You can't even see anything more than armpits and a face. No breasts, bookshelf butts, wardrobe malfunctions, ice buckets, etc. The statement is simple and to-the-point. This is where WPS could be going. Stick Hope Solo in there making a save (staged, like this one) and we're off! As far as Sharapova or Kournikova leading to ticket sales, they may not directly lead to someone coming out to a match, but I would bet the demographics in the ratings changed for the television audience. What is important is for these leagues to be able to go to a diverse pool of sponsors. I'm guessing right now WPS can't really go to Budweiser for advertising dollars. IIRC Brandi and Julie did commercials for Bud during either the '99 or '03 WWC (that were darn funny), maybe because they thought drinking-age men would be part of the audience (hey, I was watching). If WPS were to be able to go to more male-targeted sponsors and say "Look, our demographics show we're bringing in more men ages 18-35" they could get more interest from those companies (and more money--I'm not sure how long fining Borislow is going to support the league). I would love to be able to go to WPS' sponsors and say "Thanks for supporting women's soccer, I'm buying your products!", but I don't have a menstrual cycle and my acne cleared up years ago. I'm intrigued by the "lesbian" angle. This was actually not even something I was aware of till I found BS. How do you think this would change their marketing strategy? Are there different sponsors they could be approaching, different outlets for advertising, or just a different approach to an ad campaign vs. the sexy approach being discussed here?
The sport must be able to stand on its own merits for longevity, but you need to find a way to draw more people in. You can't get interested in something you're not aware of. Yes, a lot of people might say "Well, she's hot, but I can't sit through a whole game". Fine, soccer's not for everyone. There will, however, be people who go to a game or watch it on TV who will be interested and stick around. If you don't believe me, I can introduce you to my co-workers.
Look at what using sex appeal sells, and keep in mind who the tactic is meant for, then recognise where this topic is being discussed. This is a forum voicing a lot of not so typical thoughts and opinions. Your typical male football fan and sex sells target, who buys into all the rubbish, can get a point of view here they wouldn't always hear. Choosing to debate the notion that "Sex Sells" as a simple fact, will be challenged here, but in other places accepted as a non issue. In almost every mainstream view point on anything popular, sex sells. This is a odd juxtaposition for women's soccer, considering it's not part of that pop mainstream culture at the serious pro levels. It's all too simplistic. Is she playing in this pic? Has she even been playing? Football is not tennis where after every meaningful act you can get a decent photo op. That picture shows a staged element of my argument, which has little to do with the game action that the article may be talking about. If the journo is going to ignore the photo op from the game they were at, why bother taking pics from the games at all? Why don't players just get slick model portfolios put together, and charge media outlets to pick the ones that fit the needs of their article . Well, obviously . I'm a serious football fan that got sick of talking to endless streams of 12 year old's, pretending to be grown men. If I wanted to talk and listen to the worst side of our species, there's loads of places and time to do it. Right now though, I don't think I need to read all the wonderfully imaginative descriptions of how great Huffington post readers think the WTA are, for adding more sex appeal to female sport. This is fine, but I find if you don't like the male version, the female's equivalent will do little for you either.
It sells here, too. Look at the Hot Pics thread, etc. How many of our fans here at BigSoccer are completely blind or neutral to the looks of all the players. It's just that we love the sport too and a player doesn't have to be our idea of good looking to get our respect. A couple people (I think you were one of them) mentioned the importance of looks even to fans of the same gender. So it may not be "sex" per se, but still the looks/ attractiveness matters. I'm saying a simple file photo is better than nothing. A simple file photo can be absolutely fine. You're creating an issue where there isn't one. I think you do need to read them because it's fairly obvious that most of them commenting on that article are not 12-year old kids and they are wondering what is the problem with showing these beautiful athletes as just that - beautiful athletes. I felt like a goldarned provincial over there for even thinking the conversation over there would be like the one we're having here. Screw that. Call off your old tired ethics. Hell yes show some pretty pictures.
It isn't like the WUSA and WPS have been hiding good looking players. Players like Hope Solo and Heather Mitts have been doing talk shows and magazine shoot and things like that for years. Male sports fans who have no interest in soccer in general or women's soccer in particular do recognize them, which is why they poll so well on these sexy female athlete competitions that sport sites regularly seem to run. There is a big gap between having recognized sex symbols and actually getting those males to watch the sport. And it isn't just soccer. Take Natalie Gulbis, a very famous female athlete known for being attractive. Almost all male sports fans know who she is and know that she plays golf. How many of them actually sit down and watch a LPGA tournament on TV? Close to none. Lindsey Vonn got a bunch of attention during the Olympics. Do men all of sudden follow the world cup skiing competitions? They love ice skaters going all the way back to the likes of Dorothy Hamill and Katarina Witt, but do they watch women's figure skating on TV outside of the Winter Olympics? Even with women's tennis, most casual sports fans ignore all other tournaments outside of the grand slam events. The profile of the women's world cup has grown, and I think the visibility of players like Hope Solo can be a part of keeping up interest in that event, but to try to parlay that into following the women's pro league is going to be tough. That train just tends to run out of steam, no matter how much heat you try to generate with sex.
No need for you to get snippy just because I've been getting snippy...(!) It's clear there's two sides that aren't going to agree on this AND YET the disagreement is a bit of an illusion. Almost everyone here likes seeing pictures of their favorite players. Almost everyone here agrees we're not interested in Maxim-like coverage of the sport. Whether we would like to see an ad campaign for WPS like the one the women's tennis tour just launched is open to question -- but no one's expecting WPS to come up with the money for that anytime soon even if they wanted to. I just want to make it clear there's a lot of strawmen showing up in these discussions. At a minimum, what's the harm in showing pictures? and if you have an opportunity to use a picture of a Hope Solo, why not? It's the same thing that happens with David Beckham. I said this before - there was a nice little article on Becky Sauerbrunn on ESPN. Why not have a picture of her? Of course we have no say over what ESPN does, but it seems to be the trend in women's soccer coverage to NOT show photos of its attractive athletes. Undoubtedly it's silly to think anyone in the big wide world out there is paying attention to what we say here in the cozy confines of BigSoccer, but I can't help thinking that a bit of the vibe works its way out there -- and the vibe that's getting out there scares people away from showing the pictures.
Re: Hottest Women's Player, v2.0 SC, don't know about the others but I wasn't questioning your sexual orientation. I was questioning the logic of the arguments you had made, because in order for them to be true most of the men who attend sports events would have to be gay. "Not that there's anything wrong with that," but I don't think it is true. Don't get me wrong, I'll never argue that looks don't have any affect on other people. But I also think that most "sex sells" analysis is a little simplistic. And in many cases questionable, if looked at from a critical perspective. And any course of action that reinforces gender stereotypes should be viewed critically..
Re: Hottest Women's Player, v2.0 Would you consider the tennis ad campaign as reinforcing a stereotype or trying to alter it (I'm not saying it's one or the other, I'm just curious how people perceive it)? Just to throw another prejudiced position out there, at one point I told my friends (guys) I was going to a women's soccer game, one of them said "Isn't that just a bunch of dykes" (no offense) "running around kicking a ball?" so I pulled up some photos and youtube clips. Now they go to games with me. I guess that's why I have some faith that we can target the male audience without bringing in a bunch of knuckle-dragging neanderthals. It would be worth it to try to find new fans just to not be wringing our hands over the attendance numbers and the future of the league every week.
Re: Hottest Women's Player, v2.0 I've been away for a while, but I'm back and while I will not compile of list of who gets pictures with their PR and who doesn't, I'm convinced that to create player recognition for a sport trying desperately to emerge from obscurity, EVERY article and PR should include a picture of the player or group of players referenced. I really don't care if the picture is a mug shot or whatever. Just get those faces out there. Nuf said, time to go back to the library.
No one is saying that there is harm. I just don't think it is enough. The credit for whatever level of popularity attained by women's tennis does not lie with Anna Kournikova. You have to give much of it to Billy Jean King and the rivalry between Chris Evert and Martina Navratilova. And you can't chalk up the reason the Evert-Navratilova rivalry was so compelling to the fact that people thought that Evert was good looking. It was much more than that and Martina in many ways was the bigger figure in that dynamic and overshadowed Chris, even though she's not close to being a sex symbol to men. Sports, regardless of whether men, women or little kids are playing, needs to have a story, it needs to have a human element for people to identify with it and feel a personal connection and investment in it. It could be a great rivalry like McEnroe-Borg, it could be a compelling personal quest- Tiger Woods, Lance Armstrong, Michael Phelps. There are many different types of stories, but it can't just be, "hey, look at this sexy woman". That is too fleeting (no, not Julie Fleeting). Maybe we were just unlucky. What would have happened if Mia Hamm had been younger and Marta had been of the same era and the WUSA could have been built on a 10 year back and forth rivalry like Magic-Bird?
Re: Hottest Women's Player, v2.0 Actually, men don't tend to watch figure skating in the Olympics. The reason there's so much coverage of figure skating and gymnastics in the Olympics is to attract a female audience. I would consider any ad campaign that tries to sell a sport with sexy pictures of women players to be reinforcing a stereotype. Unlike some, I do think that emphasizing sex can be harmful - at least if you're tring to attract male fans. If you attract a bunch of straight male fans with pictures of attractive women, how do you think they will react when they find out how many of those players are lesbians. Especially the single players. And let's be honest, there are quite a few lesbians in any women's sport. Emphasize sex in your advertizing and you also end up emphasizing gender preference. In the end you may attract more lesbian fans, but you're more likely to have driven off the straight men. If you want to attract straight men long term you have to do it by providing an exciting product. And that's what your ads should emphasize.
Re: Hottest Women's Player, v2.0 Interesting point but times may be a-changin'. Just one example - rumors of Angelina Jolie having had flings with other women didn't keep her from being considered one of the hottest women by guys. Or by girls either for that matter.
Re: Hottest Women's Player, v2.0 When was the last time an actress wasn't required to be sexy in order to be popular and successful? To be an actress is a totally different arena for sexual value versus talent. Look at how many limited talent actresses or media stars in general become highly successful on little more than sex appeal, no matter gay, straight, or bi. It's still taboo for a man to be gay in a creative profession like acting (which is odd), but not women. Women playing elite soccer still has the same loss in value taboo as gay men in sports. Men see sexy women as sexy no matter if she's straight or gay. They won't give a flying f*ck if she's talented or not. That's until you try to sell these men the idea that it's what the girls can do on a field that makes them special. The same guy that will buy into the sexy straight or lesbian girl, will have nothing to do with the sport she may play. The moment that shirt and shorts goes and covers the sexy lingerie he so fondly looked at in some magazine spread, the guy goes back to calling her a dyke, or useless, somebody not even worthy of his time.
Re: Hottest Women's Player, v2.0 Stereotyping. You seem to feel like you're quite an expert to speak for about half the population.
I agree with the original poster. If Alex Morgan were smart, she would bend over more often. When she falls, she would open her legs up more, and use her hand to check to see if everything is ok after a fall. This would help her earn more money in the long run, and increase her marketing.
WPS_Movement, you're trolling. Cut it out. To my pleasant surprise this thread has been pretty free of crap. Til that post. Grow up, _Movement.
I think that female athletes have to prove themselves more than male athletes so advertising them and placing them in a passive, girly feminine pose stereotype just so males can be interested is offensive to me. Male athletes don't have to do that, so why do female athletes have to sell themselves short for men? And as others have pointed out, if you do advertise the women like this, are the males going to really care how talented they are on the pitch and watch them because they are awesome athletes or because they look good in a photograph? I have no problem showing photographs of these female athletes playing football and profiling what they are good at, but I wouldn't want to see them in sexy lingerie, half naked in skimpy outfits or with their legs spread out on the cover of some magazine. I don't think that does any good for women's professional sports or sets a positive example for young girls who love the sport and think they have to be beautiful to be successful. I can go on for hours on how damaging the female models in magazines have on young women in America. Young women thinking they have to be a size zero, have flawless skin and perfect hair to be recognized in society. How many young women suffer from eating disorders, confidence issues and sexism in America? I'm sorry but if WPS starts modeling their women off as pieces of meat, I'm not sure how they are moving females forward in society. Okay sorry off my soapbox!