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Discussion in 'VfB Stuttgart' started by Vfbstuttgartfan, Dec 19, 2010.
I'm in Stuttgart.
I'm going to the game in 30 minutes.
Let's take down the pigs. Here we go.
going to a pub for the game. let's go boys!
Stand by for heavy rolls.
You guys have gifted them two goals (typing this in the 38th min).
I hope Bobic looks for some defense in the winter.
we started so well, high pressure, the boys were up for it. But its the kind of game, and we have the kind of confidence that one goal would completely deflate us.
3 is halfway to 6.
49th minute: GOT ONE BACK!! That's showing heart!
And gave it back not three minutes later....
So.... this is bad
I think Labbadia needs to talk to Ulreich about looking absolutely stupid out there.
Whether you think it is offside or not, you play until you hear the whistle.
And you don't blame the opponent for playing on.
Especially when he wasn't offside.
5-3 with 20 minutes left to go......
I haven't viewed Ulreich as the source of our problems this year, but damn, that was horrible, as was the defending as a whole.
We desperately need a RB, and another CB who is actually decent wouldn't hurt either.
If you were responding to my comments, I never said Ulreich was the source of your problems.
I wasn't even talking about the "bad plays" he made either.
I was talking about the time he nearly conceded another goal because he was trying to make the call for the referees instead of playing on like he should have.
He was lucky not to have responsible for yet another Bayern goal.
As far as Ulreich's overall play, in my opinion, Ulreich wasn't any more horrible than anyone else on your defense last night.
Who is your CB who is "decent?" Tasci?
Delpierre is pretty good. Tasci has regressed.
I don't know what your definition of "pretty good" is.
But if I go from my definition of "pretty good", I have to disagree here.
I think Delpierre and Tasci are both good defenders. They've played together like 3 times all season, give it until the Rueckrunde guys. My guess is once they've both been fit for a while, the central defence will be strong again.
Anyway, will write more on the game, and the reactions around it, tomorrow.
I wasn't responding to anything you had said.
I think Delpierre and Tasci are both decent when fit and in form, but that has yet to be the case this season. I don't expect both to regain fitness and form for the entire Rückrunde, because that would just be too easy, wouldn't it, so I would hope that we could add someone decent who could partner whichever happens to in the best shape on a given day.
Re: Tasci having regressed, I'd tend to agree, but I'd also hope that it is something that he could snap out of. It's not like he's the only guy on the team playing at a level way below what he is capable, and I know you don't particularly rate him, but I'm sure you wouldn't dispute that he is better than what he's shown this season.
OK. I was confused. I thought you were because I'd recently mentioned Ulreich.
Sorry about that.
Cool. Easy enough to understand.
No. I don't know that Tasci is better than he's shown.
That's part of why I still try to watch him.
I know he has been better, but how do I know he wasn't playing over his head before?
How do I know he wasn't boosted by the better team spirit you guys had back then?
How do I know it wasn't Khedira making him look good??
You write that I or someone else "don't particularly rate him."
I think I know what Tasci can do.
It isn't that I don't rate him. I just don't rate him as highly as you guys do.
How do we know that is just me "not particularly rating him" and not you guys "overrating him???"
I believe those are questions most fans won't ask themselves about one of their own players who they particularly rate.
And I don't mean just Tasci and here. I mean everyone.
I ask the same questions of Dortmund fans. Especially about Kevin Grosskreutz.
I think they overrate him because he's a Dortmund boy.
Now that his performance is tailing off, some of them hate me for asking those types of questions. Fans don't usually want to see everything when it comes to certain players. Just the good.....
Anyhow, I hope Tasci can get fit for the second half of the season and answer these questions.
I have nothing against the kid.
I just want to see what he's really got standing on his own.
so, on the game:
it's funny how, when things are going so badly, it's much more easy to take a loss. I was disappointed but as the pigs were just rolling on the goals, I just sat back and took it all with an odd sense of acceptance haha. That we scored 3 goals was of course nice. Either way, we again looked like a relegation side and will have to improve significantly in the Rueckrunde.
Still hyped for the match tomorrow. We had our chances while it was 0-0, and a lot of the goals were down to purely ridiculous errors and freak moments. So, with right training, right lessons and right line-up, I think we can still stand a chance tomorrow. But not a particularly big one, at this rate.
The defence was awful. Delpierre and Tasci is definitely my favourite choice in central defence, and i'm convinced once they get to play an entire Rueckrunde together they'll be better again, but on this occasion they were really horrible. Tasci should have intercepted at the 0-1, Delpierre was calamitous at the 0-2, both were just swimming at the 1-5. Has to get much better. Labbadia made the choice to bring on Bicakcic for this game, his frst ever start in a BL game just so happened to be against Bayern. Bold move by Labbadia, but backfired horrendously. Bicakcic was not ready and was awful throughout. So poor how he gave the ball away at the 0-1, out of position at the 0-2 and arguably the 0-3. Very bad. Can't be mad at the kid, but it suggests he is not ready for this level yet. On Wednesday, I would start with Boulahrouz. Molinaro was the only defender to make no clear errors that led to goals in the match, but he just plays so uninspiringly all season i'm absolutely sick of it. He's just been horrible, all season long.
Kuzmanovic is back in the good books with Labbadia as coach, but personally I still prefer Gentner. Kuzmanovic does too little going forward for my liking, he needs to convince me he deserves a first 11 spot. And Traesch kinda seems to be the popular figure in these forums: no doubt, I think he's one of our best too. But has he really been playing well this season?? I honestly don't think so. He has consistently offered to little going forward this season, how many goals has he contributed to?? And I realise he works harder than most, but without result. I'm going out and saying that he's no longer immune from criticism in my books, he has to up his game. Too little came from the wings - Gebhart completely sucked, though he has been one of the few decent performers this season. Boka was slightly better, but not by much.
Attack was the bright spot, I thought the strikers did alright. Cacau and Pogrebnyak both contributed to goals, and Harnik once again built on his best joker of the league reputation with two goals. I don't buy the whole 'he can only do it if he starts' chat, personally I wouldn't mind if he started.
About Ulreich, not much to say. We knew he's young and inexperience, and we knew that there would come times when he would make mistakes such as this in his first season as a regular starter. On Sunday, one came. Nothing can do about it, he'll just have to learn and do it better next time.
Bright spot: despite the 5 goals, this Bayern was far from at their best. They scored all their chances, many of which we presented to them on a plate, but they weren't actually that creative. And their defence was poor in the second half, though maybe this was only because they felt comfortable.
There's still hope for tomorrow, but big improvements need to be made in very little time.
FF1, if believing that Tasci is a serviceable Bundesliga-level CB is overrating him in your eyes, then I guess I'll just have to overrate him. He is not great, or amazing, or really international class, but he is also only 23, so forgive me if I don't feel the need to cast him out with yesterday's Restmüll just yet.
Edit - Gebhart is probably out for the rest of the season with the good old Außenbandriss, as if it weren't going to be hard enough already.
Initial assumptions suggest he'll be out for about 3 weeks. Most of which will be during the winter break. Most certainly not the rest of the season.
fyp. From VfB's English page:
Sounds to me like it will be more than three weeks, but I'm no doctor. The hits keep coming for Stuttgart.
Strongly disagree. What should a DM in 4-4-2 do? To contribute goals? I am sorry, then why not let him play strikers or wings?
I read many posts in other fan forums, and found it very surprising to see this kind of comment: "Kuz did nothing". Just one question, Molinaro suddenly showed his attacking abilities in this game, the only game he did not have to cooperate with Gentner, is this a coincidence? He finally got support from DM, and people just ignored it.
To be honest, if this is the criteria for VfB to select its DMs, then why cannot this team go down to 2. Bundesliga? You don't like self-desciplined players but one-man-show performers, so you are not qualified for the top league, so you are penalized by your choice, what's wrong?
Disagree, how many duels did Cacau lose before 1-5? How many good opportunities did Papo fail to grasp before 1-5? Have you ever counted how many forward passes could Harnik give to his teammates in his 20 minutes? If 3 goals were the evidence that "our attack has no problem", then it is predictable that VfB can only play 2-4, 1-3, 3-5, because the team will always only get the chance after the opponents take a great lead and became careless.
Well, that's good, I guess. The report I had read said that the entire Rückrunde was in danger.
VfB now has big problems in the central line
Goalkeeper --- lack of experience, not trustworthy
Center back --- mistakes and mistakes again and again, not concentrated
Defensive midfielder --- sb always play in his own fantasy world, can be invisible for 86 min
Striker ---- Cacau still out of form
So the team is fighting against relegation
It's funny. Basically, Gentner contributes many more goals and assists than Kuzmanovic - which you turn into an argument on the player not doing his job, as if it's a bad thing?? Absolutely ridiculous. We don't necessarily play with a DM, you've made that up, we essentially play with two central midfielders. Of these two, Traesch is fairly defensive - and better at it than Kuzmanovic. Gentner is slightly more attacking than the other two: I believe this makes tactical sense. I also think Kuzmanovic has not really shown any bright spots: his one-on-one battles are decent but not great, his play insight has been so-so this season. Don't get me wrong, I think he's a good player, but he has not offered enough this season. You say our midfield can't dictate play because Gentner is not disciplined enough for the defensive role you have invented in your mind for him but that isn't actually his purpose. But, even if you were right, fact is our midfield still can't dictate flow when we play with Kuzmanovic instead. Look how Bayern dominated possession throughout the time Kuzmanovic was on the field. They may still do that with Gentner in the first 11, but at least he offers something going forward. Kuzmanovic is capable of doing so, but hasn't at all this season.
MOLINARO??? Sure he moved forward from time to time, and he made no defensive blunders. But I pretty much felt he played just as poor and uninspired as he has done all season. I saw no such clear progress that you speak of. Not to mention that I basically view your claim that extra space for him is down to Gentner being on the field as being false. It also shows the prejudice you have against Gentner - I could make the say BS argument about Niedermeier not having been on the field, thus awarding Molinaro more space due to having central defenders who go forwards less often. This argument would be both unfair on Niedermeier, and incorrect since Molinaro did not play well anyway.
I didn't count. And neither did you. My impressions in the stadium were of someone with a solid overall record for the game. I also don't buy this Cacau is off-form talk. He hasn't scored enough perhaps, but he can still take a chance - and imo has consistently been one of our best on-the-field performers all season.
I can think of the one just after the 0-3. But here we agree in general anyway: Pogrebnyak is not threatening enough in the box and does not score enough. Indeed, I would be quite pleased to sell him this winter if we get some decent money.
No, have you?
Fact is, Harnik played one half and scored 2 goals. Both chances that he had. By any judgement, that's a very good tally, but you need to make some criticism of his performance anyway because it fits the player-agenda you set out for yourself a couple of months ago.
You use the quote signs. This is interesting, because it's unclear what you are quoting.
Obviously our attack has some problems. We're ********ing 17th in the league.