San Jose : Salt Lake [R]

Discussion in 'Referee' started by MassachusettsRef, Apr 22, 2012.

  1. Hararea

    Hararea Member+

    Jan 21, 2005
    If nothing else, this adds a bit of perspective on Kreis' threatened walk-off.
     
  2. Sport Billy

    Sport Billy Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 25, 2006
    Did anyone expect them to?
    Pure judgment call on the foul.
    No way the league is going to review that.
    Once the foul is called, the red is mandatory.
    I don't think anyone has argued it's not.

    No way would this be overturned despite, IMO, being the wrong call.
     
  3. LongDuckDong

    LongDuckDong Member+

    Jan 26, 2011
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    There's no point in arguing this. It's 100% an opinion call.

    I would say to you, touch your right elbow to your belly button and point your arm out perpendicular to your torso. That's the position Olave's arm is in at the moment of the collision.

    In this position, your right shoulder is further to the right of your arm. Its perfectly possible (and in fact probable) to have your right shoulder further to the right that your lower arm in that sort of collision.
     
  4. vetshak

    vetshak Member+

    May 26, 2009
    Minnesota
    Actually, SBI is reporting the reason RSL is not challenging the red card is because if they do and it is not overturned, the team could get slammed with a hefty use tax of the appeal system.

    With RSL playing Wednesday but SJ not playing until the weekend, they opted to sit Olave Wednesday. SJ's next game is far enough out that the DC could still punish Lenhart for simulation, if they decide that he did simulate.
     
  5. DPRoberts

    DPRoberts Member

    Feb 26, 2012
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    I see this as a charge by Lenhart into Olave, back to shoulder. However, since Lenhart was within playing distance of the ball, this is generally considered legal shielding. Lenhart kicked the back of Olave's leg, reached across and deliberately pulled Olave down in order to create the confusion and contact which might draw a foul call, and he succeeded. I don't see any foul here by Olave, which is why he and the RSL defense bemoaned the call. Bazakos should have let play continue, an all-seeing referee would have called a foul on Lenhart.
     
  6. oldreferee

    oldreferee Member

    May 16, 2011
    Tampa
    I'm on record saying this could not be overturned by video replay. Almost precisely your arguement.

    But, if you are convinced that Lenhart deserves a yellow for diving, wouldn't that rescind the red? In other words, if the DC were to come out and punish Lenhart for simulation, wouldn't that be near-certain grounds for appeal?

    Perhaps the timing probably doesn't work. But just on the principle of it.
     
  7. Sport Billy

    Sport Billy Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 25, 2006
    I don't think he dove, I think he committed the foul, but I think it is so judgment oriented, that they would never consider overturning it.
     
  8. joe-soccer

    joe-soccer Member

    May 2, 2010
    Seattle area
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Question for all the experts: Happened to be down in SF for the weekend so went to the game. To all of us watching, we were left with the impression that Bazakos did not develop any rapport with the players during the game that might have helped his cause. While each call can be argued as technically correct, we were left thinking Bazakos seemed out of touch with the temperature of the game, especially early on. For example, the early yellows perhaps could have been handled by talking to the players and holding off on those cards. Regarding the first red, I would say it came at a time in the game when there didn't seem to be any particular aggression or frustration among the players (thinking about the SIAPOA). There has been plenty of discussion of the second red here. Again, he seemed more than ready to go red, when perhaps there were other options available for dealing with that play. And to us, in the stands, 6 minutes of added time did seem like a lot. Yes, Olave took forever to leave the field--at that time I was wondering why Bazakos didn't do anything to encourage him to leave more quickly. Again, he seemed reluctant or unable to use his personality perhaps to better effect.

    Any thoughts?
     
  9. DadOf6

    DadOf6 Member

    Jul 4, 2005
    Taylorsville, UT
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Uh, look at Olave's hand (in front of Lenhart just below the armpit) and imagine a line from his shoulder to his belly button and from his belly button to his hand. Stretch Armstrong would faint at the image.
     
  10. LongDuckDong

    LongDuckDong Member+

    Jan 26, 2011
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Look at this picture

    [​IMG]

    If you think that's shoulder-to-shoulder, you need an anatomy lesson. Olave is clearly behind Lenhart.
     
  11. romls

    romls Member

    Jun 15, 2007
    Lehi, UT
    There is another angle available that isn't in the MLS Highlight package. It's here:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6x4sZBvUGE&feature=youtu.be"] YouTube – Lenhart FOUL on Olave[/ame]
     
  12. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    As I said to someone else via PM... I can buy the foul call on this now. This really could go either way and I think this angle does show initial contact that could be viewed as a foul. And I never faulted Bazakos.

    That said, I still don't like what Lenhart did. In fact, I hate it. Because--no matter what the correct decision was--Lenhart right now feels like he got away with something. And without him being punished or admonished somehow, he's going to try it again, as will others. And that only makes things even more difficult for referees.
     
  13. lurking

    lurking Member+

    Feb 9, 2002
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  14. Sport Billy

    Sport Billy Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 25, 2006
    But the shorts pull still appears to come first - slightly, but first nonetheless.
    Still in the DFK going out camp.
     
  15. asoc

    asoc Member+

    Sep 28, 2007
    Tacoma
    Screen shots really don't prove anything.

    This happened as Lenhart was falling forward and pulling on Olave's shorts and after or just after he kicked the back of Olave's leg.
    --------------

    Question, At what point can a player insert themselves in front of another running player? If they have to use force and create contact to do so is that ok?

    All I see is Lenhart throwing himself in front of Olave at the last second as Olave is passing him. And he can't do it without creating contact and he actually trips over the back of Olave's leg.
     
  16. KCbus

    KCbus Moderator
    Staff Member

    United States
    Nov 26, 2000
    Reynoldsburg, OH
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    To me, it's pretty close to simultaneous.

    Having seen the new angle on the MLS package, I think it was the right call. But I think the fact that this happened on Saturday and a bunch of refs are arguing about it on WEDNESDAY demonstrates that there may not be a correct call on this one. ITOOTR.
     
  17. Sport Billy

    Sport Billy Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 25, 2006
    True.
     
  18. asoc

    asoc Member+

    Sep 28, 2007
    Tacoma
    Still curious to know how much space there needs to be in order for a player to jump in front of another player legally.
     
  19. lurking

    lurking Member+

    Feb 9, 2002
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Olave is not passing him. He is going through Lenharts back with his right shoulder. Heres an experiment. Line up to your doorframe on your right shoulder. Now try to walk through the door without drifting to your left.

    If your not an idiot, your right shoulder will go back, and your left should will go forward. The reason is really simple. If you accidentally contact the door frame with your right shoulder back it will just spin you enough to get through, minimizing contact. But if your right shoulder is forward , it will cause it to jam. Much more contact, and I would assume somewhat painful.

    Now look at Olave in that picture. His right shoulder is clearly forward of his left. That is not a man avoiding contact, thats a man looking to create it. He knows exactly what hes doing and he knows hes going to create contact. If he were trying to avoid Lenhart, his right shoulder would be pulled back. Instinct would cause him to do the same thing. Its not running form either, his right leg is forward, natural counterbalance dictates his left arm shoulder should be forward to counterbalance the torque on his lower body, but it is behind, not a natural running motion. And here is the thing, if Lenhart's torso is ahead of Olave and Lenhart is within playing distance of the ball, Olave has to at least try and avoid him.
     
  20. LongDuckDong

    LongDuckDong Member+

    Jan 26, 2011
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    There's no such thing as "jumping in front of a player illegally."

    The Law says you cannot impede the progress of another player (by stepping between the opponent and the ball) UNLESS the ball is within "playing distance." When the ball is within playing distance, it is legal for the player closer to the ball to use his body to shield the ball.

    If Lenhart is even half a torso length closer to the ball (if any portion of his torso is closer than his opponents), he has a right to shield it as as long as he doesn't push back (exert a force away from the ball) using his arms or body.

    Olave has no right to run through a player that is shielding the ball. If Lenhart is determined to have position on Olave (I'm 100% sure he did) and the ball is within playing distance, the only relevant question is; did Olave shove Lenhart before Lenhart grabbed the shorts. I say yes, unequivocally.

    Neither player impeded the progress of the other. It's either careless charging on Olave, no call, or holding on Lenhart.
     
  21. asoc

    asoc Member+

    Sep 28, 2007
    Tacoma
    If a player is 1 inch farther up the field of the player next to them. Can they force their way in front of the other player by stepping directly across? They have to go through the player to do it.

    That is basically what Lenhart does. He can't get in front of Olave without creating contact or putting himself off balance to begin with.

    Lenhart doesn't even just try to step in front. He reaches his arm out and holds Olave back. But Olave keeps going and makes contact with Lenhart's Shoulder. And at the same time, Lenhart can't even fully put himself in front of Olave because lenhart kicks the back of Olave's leg and then falls to the ground because of that.

    Olave prepares for the incoming contact from Lenhart. He even dips his shoulder a little. You can also see him bring his arms in tight to his body as Lenhart is charging in. But Lenhart doesn't do the same. He reaches across and attempts to hold Olave back. If Lenhart never reaches ACROSS Olave to hold him, Olave's shoulder never comes in contact with the back of Lenhart's shoulder.

    The grabbing of the shorts isn't the only thing going on there. Lenhart is attempting to push/hold Olave back because he was beating Lenhart for pace. It is why you see Lenhart flailing about desperately, reaching across Olave, then grabbing his shorts, kicking his legs about etc. Olave basically stays compact the whole time.

    Lenhart creates all the contact. He runs into Olave, including running the back of his shoulder into Olave and then he kicks the back of Olave's leg which causes him to fall down.

    You can see it very clearly in the new angle. You see Lenhart lunge and reach across Olave who is keeping a straight line.
     
  22. DPRoberts

    DPRoberts Member

    Feb 26, 2012
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    I agree. From the goal view, you see the two players move from left-to-right due to Lenhart's charge. If Olave had been charging, the players would have moved from right-to-left.

    A really cheap handball was called in the PA against Tony Beltran last night. These types of calls violate the spirit of the game, IMO. When referees believe they have to call handballs like that, the instructions have gone way too far.

    http://p.mlssoccer.com/SAu5a/video/956717/mls_2012-04-25-213117.640hq.mp4
     
  23. Sport Billy

    Sport Billy Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 25, 2006

    I disagree.
    The spirit of the game was violated when Beltran held an arm out and blocked a ball that was going past him. It was not a natural position for the arm.
    He deliberately held it wide making himself bigger.
     
  24. LongDuckDong

    LongDuckDong Member+

    Jan 26, 2011
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Let's stop arguing about the Olave call. It was an opinion call, not a bad call. A bad call is a call that everyone believes to be incorrect.

    Sometimes refs make calls that individuals don't like. Its part of soccer. I'm definitely in the camp that says handling gets called too often, but I also enjoy a referee who has the balls to call the game as he sees it.
     
  25. DPRoberts

    DPRoberts Member

    Feb 26, 2012
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    All players in that video starting at :25 have their arms away from their body for a large percentage of the time.
     

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