San Jose : Salt Lake [R]

Discussion in 'Referee' started by MassachusettsRef, Apr 22, 2012.

  1. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Lot going on in this one, most of all two reds.

    The first: http://www.mlssoccer.com/matchcenter/2012-04-21-sj-v-rsl/highlights?videoID=183035

    Great call by Bazakos, who immediately had the decision and managed the situation very well. Good to see SFP recognized and dealt with on the field (though, I couldn't help but wonder if all 5 DC members would have sanctioned this if it wasn't called correctly).

    The second: http://www.mlssoccer.com/matchcenter/2012-04-21-sj-v-rsl/highlights?videoID=183086

    Really feel for Bazakos on this one. From behind, it looks like a foul on Olave. And if it's a foul, he got it all right, as it's DOGSO and a free kick. Wonderfully managed and a gutsy decision. But replays show what Lenhart did with his left hand, grabbing the short, falling forward and more or less pulling Olave down with him. I hate to say this, but this is a worse sort of simulation than just diving... it's a foul by Lenhart and it's designed solely to get an opposing player sent off. And it worked, which is why I feel for Bazakos. Almost an impossible call for the officiating team to get right, as Bazakos is shielded by looking through the backs of the players and the grab is on the far side of the AR's vision. I can't wait to see if and how the DC deals with this.
     
  2. SimpleGame6

    SimpleGame6 Member

    Apr 16, 2012
    Club:
    Aberdeen FC
    Is this gonna start another thread full of complaining? I sure hope not.
     
  3. lurking

    lurking Member+

    Feb 9, 2002
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think the second is a perfect example of the limitations of the current refereeing system. There just is no possible angle for the crew to see that. I really think the only way to cut those kinds of plays out on breakaways is to have a two ARs who stay goalside of any offside trap, and observe the play looking back up the field. Its the only way for any referee to have the proper angle to make the call.
     
  4. asoc

    asoc Member+

    Sep 28, 2007
    Tacoma
    Watch Lenhart's left foot and leg in the MLS Highlight of the red card.
    At around the 42nd second and then another view at around the 50th second.

    It appears Lenhart actually kicks his left leg out from his normal running motion so he can create the contact with the back of Olave's leg and then he goes down.

    He is pulling the shorts as well to keep Olave close/pull him closer in.
     
  5. SimpleGame6

    SimpleGame6 Member

    Apr 16, 2012
    Club:
    Aberdeen FC
    Apparently Jason Kries said that he was considering pulling the team off of the field after the Olave red card. It would be interesting to see what the league would do if that happened.
     
  6. lurking

    lurking Member+

    Feb 9, 2002
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The league would have thrown the book at him. And he would have deserved it, because it would have been incredibly childish of him. That was hardly the worst officiated MLS game I have seen, and those coaches and teams made it 90 minutes.
     
  7. ColoradoRef

    ColoradoRef Member

    Jul 10, 2011
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I agree with Mass about the second red: It was wrong, but understandably so. The first one was an easy red, and very well handled.

    Kreis has no idea what he is talking about. He said this, as well: "I think we've taken the position in our league this year that we're trying to get some new, talented referees. In order to do that, you have to give guys like that an opportunity and hopefully correct their mistakes."

    http://www.deseretnews.com/article/765570584/2-ejections-cost-RSL-in-loss-to-San-Jose.html

    According to mlssoccer, this was Bazakos's 22 MLS middle. And, of course, now he's a FIFA. Kreis should think before he speaks.
     
  8. SimpleGame6

    SimpleGame6 Member

    Apr 16, 2012
    Club:
    Aberdeen FC
    Well I'm sure like most things about refereeing Kreis doesn't really study it nor is he all that interested in it. I can understand why he's upset, two red cards and they grab a late win, that's really hard to take. I've never liked Kries but I can understand why he's reacting like he is.

    If you want you could send him a care package with a ref shirt and a whistle with a note that says "Next game you can ref." I would like to see the day when referees strike because they're being abused too frequently :D
     
  9. La Rikardo

    La Rikardo Moderator

    May 9, 2011
    nj
    Totally incorrect. Bazakos may be inexperienced compared to, say, Stott, Salazar, Geiger, Marrufo, etc., and he's certainly not an elite MLS referee, but he's a solid referee and he did well on this game IMO. Also, Bazakos was referee on an RSL home game last year.

    http://www.mlssoccer.com/matchcenter/2011-08-06-real-salt-lake-vs-new-york-red-bulls/recap
     
  10. Hararea

    Hararea Member+

    Jan 21, 2005
    I don't like it when the league punishes coaches for merely disagreeing with calls, but it's another thing to go around posturing in the press. It's probably in MLS's interests to clamp down on anyone who even suggests a walkoff, or who publicly questions a referee's qualifications.

    In my view, the first red card was a good decision and the second a defensible one. No matter how people may feel about Lenhart's gamesmanship, it seems pretty clear that Olave's shoulder goes into his back with significant force. Isn't that the critical part of this play?
     
  11. Sport Billy

    Sport Billy Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 25, 2006
    Kries was doing more than disagreeing with the call.
    Had he walked off, the league would have buried him and it would not have been for disagreeing with the call.

    I don't think "Olave's shoulder goes into his back with significant force" at all, but even if it had, any contact with the shoulder came AFTER the shorts pull.
     
  12. oldreferee

    oldreferee Member

    May 16, 2011
    Tampa
    I agree.

    First foul. had to look even worse from the CR's vantage point: flying through the air in a seated position, studs locked and loaded. Hey, he got the ball! :rolleyes:

    Second foul. I'm typically the guy who says replay is coming. And if the CRs could use the video, they would be protected from certain errors. Not this one, IMHO. Sure there's grabbing. Sure, he probably could have stayed up. But this is purely judgement call. Is it justice? Doubt it. Is it a foul? Very hard to say no definitively.
     
  13. oldreferee

    oldreferee Member

    May 16, 2011
    Tampa
    How childish.
    Be a man.
    Do it or don't.
    But threaten to do it? Post game?
    Cowardly. Can't think of another word.

    At least when Bobby Knight decided to act like a 7 yr old he did it in the heat of the moment........Oh, never mind. He's a cry baby too.

    Now THAT is something for the DC to take a look at!
     
  14. GlennAA11

    GlennAA11 Member+

    Jun 12, 2001
    Arlington, VA
    Lenhart is probably the worst cheat in the league. We'll see if he stops getting any calls at some point. I would hope so.

    I agree with pretty everything MassRef says in his analysis. And I too wonder if the DC would have all agreed on the first send off.

    There was a fair bit of controversy in last night's matches. the LA-Colorado match had its share as well. Late PK (poor call from very long distance) and then allowing Beckham to get away with his usual prickish gamesmanship and dissent in the aftermath.
     
  15. Hararea

    Hararea Member+

    Jan 21, 2005
    I generally have a lot of respect for your views (and MassRef's), so I went back and watched the play again from the various camera angles. Not sure how anyone can deny that Olave's shoulder goes into Lenhart's back with force.

    As for the grab of the shorts, I'm not a fan of it, but it's commonplace at this level, and there's a good reason that referees often consider it trifling. After all, nobody's going to pull Jamison Olave around that way.
     
  16. Errol V

    Errol V Member+

    Mar 30, 2011
    I think if the referee sees the pull on the shorts, which, by the way continued until after both players were on the ground, he might say DFK coming out, or see simultaneous fouls, and we're playing boys. This is where the art officiating is all about.

    The grab to the shorts was extremely well-placed, in front and around to the left side to where neither the refree nor the AR would see it. A ready solution for this is for the league to punish it because of its clear intent to have an opponent unfairly sent off. Another solution is for referees to study the players and know their tendencies, a solution which I would think is already in place.

    Having said that, Olave can by his own actions avoid any possibility of being sent off here if he simply takes a better angle, which may have resulted in a goal since he would have arrived later. You plays yer cards and you takes yer chances.
     
  17. sm. town ref

    sm. town ref Member

    Aug 24, 2009
    Canada
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    In the art of diving... this is a very good one. After reading through all the posts and looking at it 4-5 times, I finally looked down at the short pull and self trip. Like most of you, I was looking at the defender's shoulder in the back. This didn't happen until after the attacker was leaving his own feet. I'm pretty sure, at real speed, 99% of us miss this.

    I don't like it anymore than most, but at least it's creative... he could give Barca and RM some leasons:rolleyes:
     
  18. oldreferee

    oldreferee Member

    May 16, 2011
    Tampa

    Q1: I thought we heard that the DC would only be reviewing things that all 5 agree is a red? So, by definition, they cannot review simulation.

    Q2: If all 5 agree it's NOT a red, can the DC rescind it?

    Again, I thought that radio interview (and one of the newspaper articles) was pretty clear about the DC only stepping in to remove vc and sfp from the league.

    Can someone please confirm? or point out my error?
     
  19. GreatGonzo

    GreatGonzo Member+

    Jul 1, 1999
    MA
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Q1: From the disciplinary page:

    "In obvious examples of simulation/embellishment.
    Disciplinary Committee must be unanimous in its view of the incident, and it must be obvious."

    So yes, they can punish simulation. They've certainly fined players in the past for simulation. I can't recall off the top of my head if any players have been suspended for it, though.

    Q2. Pretty sure the answer is no. I think the only time they rescind red cards is in the case of mistaken identity.

    Edit: It looks like teams can appeal red cards, starting this year.

    http://www.sbnation.com/soccer/2012/3/1/2835928/mls-clubs-appeal-red-cards-2012
     
  20. La Rikardo

    La Rikardo Moderator

    May 9, 2011
    nj
    RSL's Saborío was suspended for a game last year after his simulation resulted in a DOGSO-F send-off (against San Jose, funny enough). Things really do even out in the end :p

    http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/article/2011/07/29/rsls-saborío-fined-suspended-dive-vs-quakes

    The rationale for the suspension was that the simulation caused a suspension of another person. That's why Davies was only fined and not suspended for the simulation that gave DC the late draw at Rio Tinto last year, because that resulted only in a PK and no misconduct for RSL.
     
  21. bluetooner

    bluetooner Member

    Nov 7, 2008
    Carteret NJ
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    Scotland

    Agree 100%. First is a RC every single time,as it should. Almost identical to the Gabe Farfan RC in the UNion game, although the referee there didn't handle it as well. 2nd is one of those where the referee has no chance really. Id like to think the AR would have helped out, but we know they rarely do.

    If Kreis had taken the team off, i would have suspended him for 3-5 games, fined him, given SJ a 3-0 win and warned them that if it happened again points deductions would have taken place. Disgraceful thought with something that isn't obviously bad refereeing.
     
  22. vetshak

    vetshak Member+

    May 26, 2009
    Minnesota
    I was watching this game live, bummer of a situation for Elias. He's hopelessly caught out on the long ball.

    I would bet that the AR made the call. If you watch the AR, he's going to the goal line after the whistle and even starts to turn the corner for the PA, he wants to give a PK. I think Elias overruled him on that.

    Lenhart initiated the contact and dove on the play. If the DC is working the way it should, they should overturn Olave's suspension and suspend Lenhart for diving. A crying shame this impacted the outcome of the match.

    Kreis has every reason to be upset, but shouldn't be angry with the crew. The AR has to make this call from the line halfway across the field, he's doing the best he can. He should be 100%, and that would be the mistake here. I would bet a simple call from Mr. Walton would likely help settle Kreis down.
     
  23. Errol V

    Errol V Member+

    Mar 30, 2011
    Maybe it's just me, but more and more I see people writing things with details that make them less clear, not clearer. I mean, to whom does it need to be obvious? What if the DC is unanimous about something that is not obvious as used above? Who decides whether or not it is? What if it isn't obvious but it was punished by the DC...is there a DC review committee that overrules them?

    Or is the "obvious" clause meant for those people who disagree with the DC's decision, providing a way to say to those people, "Look, the DC can't do that unless the incident was obvious, so it must have been", and so it's a way to make the DC infallible by definition?

    In other words, the DC has no power as defined only in the sentence above.
     
  24. Sport Billy

    Sport Billy Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 25, 2006
    Sorry, I should have been clearer. My objection was to the "significant" force.
    There's contact, but the contact was to the point that it alone would have put Lenhart down or injured him.

    Had the short pull not come first, it was enough for me to call the foul.
     
  25. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Hmm. I saw the exact same thing you did, but drew an opposite conclusion: that the AR gave no help and just didn't hear Bazakos' whistle at first. It could be either, I suppose. But I'm not sure why Bazakos would feel confident enough to go with the AR's foul call, yet then "overrule" his location decision; that seems illogical to me.
     

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