It was a pretty entertaining match, but once again we have a moment where the ref injects (in my opinion) himself into the match with a rather poor call. Is this a handball? http://www.mlssoccer.com/video/2012/04/25/penalty-beltran-called-hand-ball
Does the player gain an advantage by having the ball hit his hand? What happens to the ball if his hand is not there? I say no it's not a handball. I also believe he missed a PK that should have gone against Dallas in the 2nd half. Disclaimer - I live in Dallas and I root for FC Dallas. What I think is truly unacceptable is that the announcers kept saying, remember everyone this is only the referee's 11th MLS match. I think that's not only unfair to him, but I also think it undermines all of his training, preparation and history of officiating the sport. They should be ashamed of making such statements.
Especially since everyone keeps complaining about the current officials, so we went out and tried to get some newer blood. Turns out you don't like them either, so maybe the problem isn't with the officials, maybe it's you. Also I think this is one of those times when it's best to take a breath and watch the whole play. The player is falling to the ground, not paying attention to where the ball is, not deliberate and you can see that if you watch what happens before and after the ball strikes him.
He knows where the ball is and he knows Shea is behind him. The question is, does he make an effort to remove his arm from the situation. Tough call for sure. This ones 50/50.
Cynical foul so therefore it is a handball situation. He knew Shea was in the vicinity and was defending accordingly. Made himself a little too big for the ref's liking so no issues here.
No, he didn't interject himself. The event required a call. Whatever call he made the other team was going to be upset. Was it a bad call? That's another questions. But I don't think it's fair to say a referee interjects himself by making a call on a play where a ball and hand meet.
well, from the way to pinballs off the heel of his teammate and he's falling down it seems like a tough call to me. The ball ended up going right to his opponent anyway and likely would not have had it not hit him in the arm. But I personally I have a pretty high threshold before deciding that handling has occurred. But I do agree 100% that Dunseth harping on how many matches a guy has done in MLS is total BS. He does it all the time. We've seen plenty of guys with a lot of matches make mistakes. And we've seen plenty of guys do well in their first few games. So this criticism is nonsense.
is he making himself bigger or is he slipping and trying to catch himself? When I watch this I don't view it as deliberate (the FIFA wording) at all. I'm not sure Beltran even knew the ball was coming back at him until it grazed his elbow.
Dunseth brought it up because in those 11 matches he has done at the MLS level, he has now given 9 penalty kicks. That's a weird stat. He followed it up with "did he get this one right?" so I don't think his original intent was to use that as his arsenal.
Another one of those where if I am the AR I can defend this in front of anyone as being the correct call. He made himself bigger, his arm is far from being in a natural position even if falling, possibly even gains benefit. If you fall your arm goes to the ground not out to the side so I don't buy that as an excuse. All this being said, if I have a gun to my head and am asked if I was in the middle would I call it, I am not sure. I probably would have taken an extra second to see how things played out to make up my mind.
I'll tell you right now; your definition of deliberate and FIFA's definition are completely different. FIFA interprets the "deliberate" in the wording quite liberally (more liberally than I would like). FIFA considers subconscious decisions deliberate. At times when a player doesn't have time to assess the situation and his/her reaction is subconscious and involuntary, FIFA calls that deliberate. If, as a player, the ball is heading towards your arm and you don't have time to fully assess the situation, but your body makes a "subconscious" reaction to keep the arm in the path of the ball, FIFA calls that deliberate handling.
I'm not 100% sure that that 9 PK stat is correct. I think it's supposed to be 7, which is still high. I started looking it up, and Gamble was the referee during the Portland - DC game last year where Portland had three tries at a PK because Bill Hamid kept jumping off the line, then there was another PK later in the game. The MLS write-up says he called 4 PKs in that one because of those retakes - technically it was only 2. He also called 2 PKs in the New England @ Colorado game last year, and looking at the highlights, both seem right to me. He called a PK in the Toronto @ Columbus game this year, which was questionable due to the lack of a decent video angle. Not sure when else he called PKs, since I stopped looking because I really needed to get work done.
Reference? I think you overstate what FIFA says. The I&G guidance is relateively limited: And I don't think anything in the LOTG or the I&G is inconsistent with what the ATR says But I also think your post directs to another issue regarding delibearteness: at the professional level, given the skill and body control of the players, there is almost a presumption of intentionality. At younger ages, I think we look for evidence that the handling was deliberate before calling; at the professional level, it appears to me, that in light of the skill and sneakiness of the players, referees look for evidence tha the handling was not deliverate before not whistling.
+1 (There is an oft-misunderstood USSF paper that references gaining an advantage. But I think the point of the reference in teh paper was always that whther the player gained an advantage can be a clue as to whether the handling was deliberate.)
And that was my point, though I concede I didn't state it. I don't believe he gained an advantage because of it. I don't believe the action was deliberate, nor do I believe the call was justified. However, I also see how the call could (and was) made.
Stop reading if the player gained an advantage from the handball. Only judge if his action was deliberate. Did the ball play the player or the player the ball. For me the deflection happens at a high rate of speed. Don't judge it in super slow motion. Judge it in normal speed. He is off balance and the ball changes direction and flights towards him. I found the call harsh and unwarranted. Play on no foul here.
Keep in mind here that it is entirely possible for a player to gain an advantage by having the ball hit is hand, and yet there was no infringement.
thank you all for your input sorry if I've come across as rude. It's been a frustrating couple days as an RSL fan with tight decisions going against us. Such is the game. Honestly, RSL needs to look at the play leading up to the 2 recent instances. They were avoidable with better play
Here it? I didn't here it. Its just my experience as a ref and a player. If you have less than one second to make a decision, you can't honestly think about. You have to act before you conscious mind can assess the situation. You have to "feel" rather than think. Thus your actions are almost primal and involuntary, like a gazelle reaction to a crocodile emerging from the watering hole. I simply cannot call the above described thought process deliberate. For me, a deliberate decision cannot be made without a proper look at the consequences and potential outcomes. But FIFA disagrees. From what they describe in the ATR and other documents, a split second primal reaction IS deliberate.
so if we were all to answer the question this way. Would you call this if you were in a sunday afternoon match?
An action can be deliberate with the outcome being unintended. For instance, a player leaves their arms out to the sides of their body deliberately. The ball hits this arm which is taking up space from the passing lane and or goal. The action is deliberate despite not knowing or wanting the resulting consequence. The action is deliberate not the result.
