Post-match: Russia vs. USA: the midfield

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by Scotty, Nov 14, 2012.

  1. Mr Martin

    Mr Martin Member+

    Jun 12, 2002
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Bradley was terrific, Williams had issues, and Jones was fine, better than some folks are critiquing. Jones was particularly dangerous as the left wing in the 2nd half. :D

    Kljestan and Diskerud were OK, and obviously Diskerud's goal was huge. But the team was a jumble at the end (JK throwing sh1t against the wall and clearing his bench) and those two midfielders were not in long enough to really evaluate how they performed.

    In general, I see the point behind the CM trio of Williams (#6), Bradley (#8), and Jones (#8). There are times when this is a good setup to use, against top opponents.

    But I also understand the concerns that the dual #8's, especially Jones+Bradley, are too similar against most opponents. It's as if Spain played a CM trio of Busquets at #6 and TWO Xabi Alonzo's as the #8's, dropping Xavi. (And anyone who writes that the US isn't Spain gets the analogy-dunce award for today)

    Now obviously the US has nobody who can play like Xavi. Pointless to hope for that. But if JK is really wedded to this midfield triangle, then much of the time Bradley+Jones is redundant. I'd prefer a better play-maker/passer as the second #8, and call it a hybrid #8/#10. I'd play Donovan there when available, or try Kljestan or Zusi otherwise.

    Of course, my solution to the redundant Jones+Bradley issue is to move Jones to CB next to Cameron, which just might solve our Boca/Goodson lack of speed/quickness/skill/passing problem. But that's for a different thread.
     
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  2. Jazzy Altidore

    Jazzy Altidore BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Sep 2, 2009
    San Francisco
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Jones is much more talented with the ball and more athletic.

    Williams has had more glaringly bad games for USA (although many were out of position on the wing).

    Jones upside is such that I think we stick with him and hope he figures it out in the hexagonal.
     
  3. Grogtank

    Grogtank Member

    Sep 5, 2009
    Vegas Baby
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The bolded part is wrong. I think you are confusing playmakers with attacking midfielders and box to box midfielders. We don't have a player like Ozil or Pastore or Cazorla. We have several strong box to box style midfielders that can play the 8 role along with supporting the attack. This is in large part why Klinnsman is playing a 4-5-1(4-3-3) rather than a 4-5-1(4-2-3-1). It gets an extra man forward to support attacks.

    One can argue if Bradley would serve us better as a 6 but considering his ability to finish I think that would be a mistake. We need him to grab us a goal every now and then all things considered. We lack the ability to retain possession on the attack. It's the same reason the 4-4-2 seems to serve us well at times.
     
  4. Smithsoccer1721

    Smithsoccer1721 Member+

    Feb 16, 2007
    Middle of the Table
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I am only basing this on since Williams has been moved more centrally. Even if Jones might be the better player I think Williams is a better fit for what we are trying to do. Williams play vs Jamaica at home is an example of how he just helped continue the movement simply. He is a better fit in my opinion. Bradley +Williams+Donovan, Zusi, Sacha, Mix? Is what I would look at.
     
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  5. El Michael

    El Michael Member

    Dec 17, 2009
    Club:
    DC United

    can only hope that Edu can find PT with his club. He's a great 2nd half sub and plays 1 v1 defense really well
     
  6. LongDuckDong

    LongDuckDong Member+

    Jan 26, 2011
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If Bradley and Jones are really going to get in each others way, maybe its time to try Jones at CB. He's played their for Schalke, and I know he's better than Goodson.

    Jones has never received a strait red card in his career. Not once.
     
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  7. Smithsoccer1721

    Smithsoccer1721 Member+

    Feb 16, 2007
    Middle of the Table
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Never said he had. If judging Williams vs Jones defensively the tackles Jones makes, in my opinion, would lead him to more likely get a red or double yellow. An easier way to say it is I think Williams is a smoother tackler of the ball.
     
  8. Editor In Chimp

    Editor In Chimp Member+

    Sep 7, 2008
    Didn't he get one for stomping on someone in the BL?
     
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  9. dlokteff

    dlokteff Member+

    Jan 22, 2002
    San Francisco, CA
    As others have said, too much confusion. Once Jones moved to left forward, it made sense (which is a ridiculous statement).

    Bradley was excellent with the ball. At times he jogs defensively which I don't understand. Other than that he is just a very, very good player.

    Jones with his typically schizophrenic performance. He's everywhere, doing more good than bad, but in the end to what aim?

    Williams was just o.k as a D-mid. Couple of mistakes. Duh.

    Gatt showed well in Cap 1. Offered some threatening moments and also aided defensively as well.

    Edu was good, except for the one play where he remembered that he's Edu - slow to think with poor touch - and allowed himself to be stripped in his own third for a Russian chance.

    Kljestan was decent enough. He's a pretty class player that will help us.

    Mixx popped up the right spot and put a solid strike. Had one aimless cross/shot before that which was poor.
     
  10. SamsArmySam

    SamsArmySam Member+

    Apr 13, 2001
    Minneapolis, MN
    Worth pointing out that the first goal originated from a fluke free kick that resulted when Danny Williams knocked Jozy on his backswing just before striking the ball. Video here.

    http://www.ussoccer.com/media-libra...ussia--Fedor-Smolov-Goal---Nov--14--2012.aspx

    For sure, Williams deserves some blame for failing to react immediately and get back to help the D. Instead, it looks like he's gesturing to the ref that he was impeded and asking for a re-kick.

    Fluke play.
     
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  11. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    Disagree with the Jones-Bradley meme going around. Bradley played the deep-lying position behind Jones and Williams in a manner similar to in the Scotland and Brasil matches with Williams in for Edu. The trio did an excellent job generating opportunities as the game wore on.

    The bigger issue was the lack of possession through the wing forwards. Herc isn't a wing forward and Gatt is too green. This resulted in quick counters that the team had a hard time keeping with. Of course it would help if both center backs were comfortable stepping into midfield.

    Klinsmann likes to use his deep-lying players. Torres, Beckeman, and Bradley have variously been played there generating attacks from deep positions.. Here JK would have been better served just going with more of a destroyer in Williams in that 6 spot behind Bradley and Jones. His best game came against Jamaica when he played there.
     
  12. silverlion

    silverlion Member

    Nov 23, 2001
    Brooklyn
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    We have attacking midfielders, they're just not NT quality, that is with the exception of Donovan, Dempsey is more of second striker now. But as England can probably tell you, depending on 8s to create offense just doesn't work. Bradley is a special player because he's a complete (defensive) midfielder, he has the skills to be a destroyer or a holding midfielder and add to the offense (a deep playmaker, a la Pirlo), he can set up and score goals. In Klinsmann first game against Mexico Bradley played as a 10 in the first half, that didn't work too well, and that's what I'm referring to.

    I'm not against using the 4-3-3, but Jones and Bradley are defensive midfielders first so only one of them should be supporting the attack at a time. The wingbacks should be adding more to the attack to compensate and either Jones or Bradley should be covering for them. That's why we kept seeing that gap between the midfield and defense and Williams looking lost when 2/3 Russians attacked the middle.

    To be sure that's all tactical because JK can now go over the video, look at Honduras, and go "hmm, maybe we should keep Jones back". It was a friendly after all and a successful one, IMO.
     
  13. Marko72

    Marko72 Member+

    Aug 30, 2005
    New York
    It's a ridiculous place to put Jones, true, but it served in this case to get Jones and Bradley out of each others' way. Once there was sufficient distance and differentiation between them, they both improved their play.

    It's really frustrating that our best central midfielder and his close second don't play well together, but they just do not function well together. We have to accept that for what it is and move forward. How many other ways must Klinsmann see that?

    This issue, however, pales behind the urgency of our CB situation. Even as shambolic, confused and ugly as our midfield can get, it's basically fine, even against Russia on the road. It's the CB pairing. Usually, to be more specific, the problem is the CB playing next to Geoff Cameron, whomever that happens to be at the time.
     
  14. Spursfan1

    Spursfan1 Member+

    Sep 7, 2010
    Atlanta
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I guess we will wait and see what it looks like in february.
     
  15. Grogtank

    Grogtank Member

    Sep 5, 2009
    Vegas Baby
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You mean Jones in the 6 spot? The 6 spot is exactly where Williams played. Also, Bradley was all over as usual. He looked to be a free 8 tonight, coming deep and getting forward.
     
  16. Spursfan1

    Spursfan1 Member+

    Sep 7, 2010
    Atlanta
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Bradley played al ot like he plays for Zeman.

    it was good stuff. best player in the USMNT right now hands down.
     
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  17. KALM

    KALM Member+

    Oct 6, 2006
    Boston/Providence
    I'm not sure I agree with this, but given that this was the first time we've tried the Williams, Jones, Bradley trio and that as you said we had some glaring issues on the wings coming into this match, I might not be as quick to discard the option as most people are.
     
  18. LongDuckDong

    LongDuckDong Member+

    Jan 26, 2011
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Nope. He got suspended for the incident, but no red card. Jones has only received 6 send offs, all of them were for yellow card accumulation.

    Regardless, with Bradley's NT form, you have to build around him at CM. Jones is versatile. He can play almost anywhere.
     
  19. Spursfan1

    Spursfan1 Member+

    Sep 7, 2010
    Atlanta
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Bradley is 2 goals away from having as many goals as Jozy does.
     
  20. an1310

    an1310 Member+

    Jun 2, 2003
    Atlanta, GA
    Given how much in form MB90 is, might not be a bad idea.
     
  21. Marko72

    Marko72 Member+

    Aug 30, 2005
    New York
    I wouldn't even say that Bradley is particularly "hot" by his standards right now. It's just the player he is and the general trajectory he's on (barring any injury, of course).
     
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  22. sXeWesley

    sXeWesley Member+

    Jun 18, 2007
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I agree with everything up to this point. If we are going to move one of our many DM's to CB it should be Edu, not Jones. Jones has amazing offensive skills for a DM that would be wasted at CB. Edu on the other hand is not burdened with the ability to pass and dribble like that.

    More importantly why, (as stated 1,000 times before), can we not move Jones to the 6, where he is vastly superior to every other option and then just insert a more creative, attack minded player in the slot previously occupied by Jones?

    Not playing Jones as the 6 just continues to boggle my mind.
     
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  23. ImaPuppy

    ImaPuppy Member+

    Aug 10, 2009
    Using too many parentheses
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    Nat'l Team:
    American Samoa
    Basically this, it doesn't even surprise me anymore in the slightest. When he was going to hit that volley I was like, "This is probably going to be a really nice volley."

    I just don't think that way about the majority of our players.
     
  24. INKRO

    INKRO Member+

    Jul 28, 2011
    I'm gonna have to agree. "Hot" was that three match sequence between the Genoa game w/ Chievo, then the Italy game, and then the Juventus game right after that.
     
  25. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006

    NO. It was.

    ----------------------Altidore
    ------------Herc-------------------Gatt
    -----------------Jones------Williams
    -----------------------Bradley

    http://www.mlssoccer.com/matchcenter/2012-11-14-rus-v-usa/formation

    with Williams and Jones needing to be flipped.
     

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