Ronaldo vs Messi

Discussion in 'BigSoccer Polls' started by shayanmufc, Nov 1, 2012.

?

after seeing the description...do you think messi deserves to be the world player of the year?

Poll closed Nov 5, 2012.
  1. yes

    50.0%
  2. no

    50.0%
  1. Guigs

    Guigs Member+

    Dec 9, 2011
    Club:
    Vasco da Gama Rio Janeiro
  2. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Neymar got the bronze boot for the competition and not the final. He played well in the SF and scored. In the Final he missed 1 great opportunity and did nothing else although I don't blame him much given the disparity between both teams.
     
  3. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Why do you keep switching the argument ? The point was about the marketability of the Libertadores outside of SA. Of course it's a big and traditional competition.

    The point is, when there are Ronaldo's in Brazil, they go to play their prime in Europe. Ronaldo, Rivaldo, Roberto Carlos, Kaka' and etc ... all played their prime in Europe. And when they left, nobody in Brazil was at their level.

    None of those players are anything special. Pato had the most potential. Damiao has proven to be terrible at the Selecao.

    It doesn't matter what the majority is. The main teams have plenty of foreigners with the exception of Barcelona.

    Things are starting to change. But up until 3 years ago, even average Brazilian players go to Europe and etc ... look at Shaktar, has 3 or 4 Brazilians who aren't sensational. Had you heard about Hulk in Brazil ? Pepe (who became Portuguese). Things may be starting to change with players like Neymar staying for longer. But at some point he will go. Oscar just went, Lucas is going to PSG at the end of the year. These are all brightest prospects and they are going to Europe to play in their prime.
     
  4. BocaFan

    BocaFan Member+

    Aug 18, 2003
    Queens, NY
    Because its bullshit. La Liga has the highest UEFA coefficient. It's not just Barca and Madrid that contribute to that #1 ranking. It's teams you refer to as "second division teams" that are giving teams from around Europe major headaches. Last year the Europa League final was between #5 and #10 teams in La Liga.
     
  5. BocaFan

    BocaFan Member+

    Aug 18, 2003
    Queens, NY
    Again, you are trying to be the contrarian because you think that makes you appear as an astute football fan, but really it just makes you look dumb (sorry, but its true).

    A big reason for the Falcao hype is because he seems to keep scoring crucial goals late in matches to win games for his team. He also comes up big in high profile matches. He's the main reason Colombia seems headed for the World Cup. He was althe so top scorer in the Europa League, man of the match in the final and man of the match in the UEFA Super Cup against Chelsea.

    So, no, its not just La Liga that has given him recognition around the world.
     
  6. Hendrixforpope

    Hendrixforpope Member+

    Barcelona
    Brazil
    Dec 15, 2007
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    I don't think this thread is necessary anymore. Messi has bigger fish to fry than CR7.
     
  7. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    I do admire your positiveness about that game !
    In fact that game was like a pro team vs a junior team to say the least with barca 71% of possession and Santos barely mae 29%!!! Barca had actually hot the post twice and got 6 times caled offsidde ... So the game could have ended up like 7 (or 8) -2 (even we positively think Neymar and Borge should have scored those 2)

    Neymar got the "fan flop player" of the game . for he did not much and miss the 1 on 1 with Valdez

    I was awaken in 4 AM in the morning just to watch that game live and I fell on sleep in half time for getting so depressed and boring as barca always got the ball and tikitajka while neymar was just running up down chasing them!
     
  8. Elliott Foster

    Elliott Foster New Member

    Nov 27, 2012
    tel aviv
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    yep, why all the fuss :)
     
  9. Guigs

    Guigs Member+

    Dec 9, 2011
    Club:
    Vasco da Gama Rio Janeiro
    He did not play well on that semi final, Santos only beat Kashiwa because Borges and Neymar got the strikes they are capable off from very far. Against Barca they didn't.
     
  10. Guigs

    Guigs Member+

    Dec 9, 2011
    Club:
    Vasco da Gama Rio Janeiro
    I was replying to a direct comment. there are more than 1 argument going around.

    All were on the National Team before making the move to Europe. And at the time Rivaldo went to Europe he was not a prospect anymore, he was a well established player that had won our National League 2x on a Palmeiras team that was considered one of the greatest in Brazil, same for Roberto Carlos... sorry you guys didn't hear about them until they joined your spotlight. Also remember all of these players usually go into Europe to play for smaller teams first, before the Euro a lot of teams could not make too many foreigner moves, since the commonwealth was established and Barca now can get the best Euro players without worrying about labor situations, they started to get more and more S.A. players. Under their non-Euro clauses.

    That's my point a lot of players that move to Europe are nothing special.. are just labeled as such because everyone in Europe is also looking for the next Ronaldo. But when a player has a track record of excellence in our National League, he'll most likely continue that path. Of course there are exception, or are you going to tell me there are no bust prospects in Europe?

    By the way Damiao has not been terrible at the selecao, he had a great Olympic game, and he's a target man, setting up tons of goals, and even scoring some.

    Good thing the president of La Liga, Jose Luis, just mentioned this a bit ago... 77% of the players in La Liga are Spaniards, 16% Euro, 7% non Euro.

    Let's put that in number shall we? avg out 25 players per team (most have more on an active roster)

    thats 550 players!
    423 spaniards
    88 Europeans
    38 non Euro...

    where are all these plenty of non Euro playing in La Liga?

    if we avg it out to the the full roster of teams which get close to 40 players.. let's see them again!
    800 players
    616 Spaniards
    128 Euro
    56 non Euro.

    try that with the other leagues... England is the only one where they have less home players than national players in it.

    3 years is a long time. 3 years ago Messi was not the best player in the world and Greece, Spain, Italy and Portugal were prosperous countries...

    And yes players will get sold but for larger European teams and for larger profits. Which Euro team wouldn't get rid of Oscar? if they got offered 50 million euros for a 19 year old? Which Euro team wouldn't get rid of Lucas for 40 million Euros? Then again.. Neymar got up to 60 million and he stayed, Damiao 35 million and he's in Internacional, Dede 28 million and he's in Vasco among others.
     
  11. Guigs

    Guigs Member+

    Dec 9, 2011
    Club:
    Vasco da Gama Rio Janeiro
    Europa league is second division tournament. International tournament but not really that great of competition. Big boys play on the big leagues... teams that kicked out of the big leagues play in the Europa league.

    Do the math.
     
  12. jared9999

    jared9999 Member+

    Jan 3, 2005
    Naucalpan Estado de Mex
    Club:
    Club América
    Nat'l Team:
    Mexico
    agreed......Messi is better

    close thread
     
  13. Guigs

    Guigs Member+

    Dec 9, 2011
    Club:
    Vasco da Gama Rio Janeiro
    He was even better when Porto won the Europa league, he's been playing for Colombia this way for the whole qualifying campaign...

    Yes he's been the same player for a while... he's been that same player in River Plate since 2007. But you guys don't take notice on these players until they reach a platform that you watch. That does not mean they were not great before you started watching him.
     
  14. BocaFan

    BocaFan Member+

    Aug 18, 2003
    Queens, NY
    Do the math? What math? That makes no sense. :alien:

    And no shit the Europa League is a second-tier tournament. I'm responding to your point that La Liga's second-tier teams suck. So obviously I point to an international tournament involving those second-tier teams. D'uh!
     
  15. BocaFan

    BocaFan Member+

    Aug 18, 2003
    Queens, NY
    huh? The qualifying campaign began in October, 2011. Falcao was already in La Liga by then. His numbers for Colombia have only recently been impressive. Before 2011 his GPG was only about 0.2

    No he isn't. Players get better as the move into their mid-twenties. A player at 25 isn't the same player he was at 20. Just like in your previous post you said Messi wasn't as good in 2008 as he is now. You contradicted yourself in a span of 5 minutes. :ROFLMAO:
     
  16. Guigs

    Guigs Member+

    Dec 9, 2011
    Club:
    Vasco da Gama Rio Janeiro
    You said.. La Liga is top tier because they did great on Europa League... Second tier teams x second tier teams... Wow dude... just wow.
     
  17. Guigs

    Guigs Member+

    Dec 9, 2011
    Club:
    Vasco da Gama Rio Janeiro
  18. BocaFan

    BocaFan Member+

    Aug 18, 2003
    Queens, NY
    They are top tier because their teams do better in both European competitions than any other league in Europe. Fact proven by UEFA coefficient.

    Yeah, wow!
     
  19. Guigs

    Guigs Member+

    Dec 9, 2011
    Club:
    Vasco da Gama Rio Janeiro
    let's see the top Brazilian players in Europe shall we

    We'll divide them up as established players that left.
    Alex PSG -> main center back for Santos in Libertadores... they lost 5-1 to Boca in the final.
    Gilberto Silva -> Very good player in Brazil and Europe was established before he left for Europe
    Ramires Chelsea -> part of a very good Cruzeiro team that went 2 years in a row to the libertadores, established himself before being transfered.
    Gomes Chelsea -> won brasileiro 2x and copa do brasil..
    Juan Roma -> established defender
    Luisao Benfica -> part of the great cruzeiro team
    Thiago Silva -> started in juventude went to europe too young, loaned back to brazil and fluminense made him an established player, which he still is.
    Lucio -> top defender in Brazil top defender in Europe
    Kaka -> young but was part of the 2002 World Cup squad he wasn't a prospect
    Maicon -> boy that cruzeiro team was good.
    Julio Cesar -> was already in the Flamengo NT
    Felipe Melo -> kept getting traded in Brazil before finally going to Europe
    Adriano Barca -> played for top brazilian league team.. Coritiba...

    Players that were promises due to 1 season
    Robinho -> was sought after for 2 years, but his value tripled after his last season in Santos (which was his career year). He's been the same player outside of that 1 year for his whole career.
    Lucas Leiva -> sold after 1 great season in the Brasileirao, since has been converted into a defensive mid.

    Players that were prospects
    Sandro Spurs -> signed when he was 18 before he had a great libertadores for Inter, replaced by Guinazu which is better than him
    Anderson Man U -> when playing for Gremio his team was relegated to the second division
    Rafael Man U -> left Brazil when he was 18 sold during a youth tour from fluminense to showcase players to be sold.
    Marcelo -> left early from fluminense but he got about 30 starts before he left... remember Rafael?
    Michel Bastos -> left at an early age, came back as a loan played for Gremio until cut then went to Figueirense, before being no longer needed and heading back to France.
    David Luiz -> second division team in Brazil when he was bought by Europe
    Daniel Alves -> left Bahia early on a loan from there he stayed.
    Pato -> sold as a prospect and helped an Inter team that won the Club Championship trash a mexican team on the recopa
    Lucas -> has already had enough experience in the Sao Paulo (71 games) for everyone to know what kind of player he is. Although I would still place him as a promise because he's a speedster, and you know what happens to them when they get hurt...
    Oscar -> He is still a promise, he got into the Brazilian NT young due to the Olympics but made enough of a impact to get continuous call ups.

    So the Brazilian League is weaker for losing out on some of those players, but most of those players also get replaced by the Brazilian league within a year or two. Last year nobody in Brazil knew who Bernard was, this year he's the next up and coming young player...

    I don't think those 25 players make the Brazilian league that much weaker especially since some of them are older now and younger players would get starts on their spots, while others would be warming benches on top teams or playing for the lower ranks of the league.
     
  20. Guigs

    Guigs Member+

    Dec 9, 2011
    Club:
    Vasco da Gama Rio Janeiro
    Messi has been the same player since he turned 21, how come the true can't be said for Falcao? he's been the same striker since 21... He's getting goals on WC qualifiers, Luis Suarez is ahead of him there and leads the EPL.. is he a better striker then??

    Messi has won the past 3 best player of the year. During that time he was the only premier striker for Barcelona. And Ibrahamovic is not a premier striker.... Henry and Eto are. During that time Messi shared the target which naturally brings his numbers down.
     
  21. Guigs

    Guigs Member+

    Dec 9, 2011
    Club:
    Vasco da Gama Rio Janeiro
    Yet you don't see a disparity between first and second place in La Liga.. and the third place... you know.. about 20+ points...

    So yes.. the top 2 teams in La Liga out class Europe, while the 3rd place and bellow from La Liga outclass 4th place and bellow from other european leagues... Dude just open up the link I put for Europa League you really want to call that serious competition? You're telling me those teams would be crushing the Brazilian league?
     
  22. BocaFan

    BocaFan Member+

    Aug 18, 2003
    Queens, NY
    I stopped reading there. Can't believe I'm engaged in an argument about whether or not players typically reach their prime at age 21.

    Guigs -- > ignore box. o_O
     
  23. Dr. Know

    Dr. Know Member+

    Dec 5, 2005
    Macondo
    Messi at 21 wasn’t scoring the ridiculous amount of goals he’s scoring ow. SO no, he wasn’t the same player.

    Falcao was injured constantly when he was at River. Towards the end of his career there he got fit and River won the Primera with him. THen Porto got him and he killed there, Then Atletico payed a huge price for him since they had the money after they sold Totrres.
     
  24. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    I know all about Palmeiras in 93/94 and Paulistao 96 with Evair, Cesar Sampaio, Rivaldo, Cafu, Djalminha, Luizao, Roberto Carlos (courted for 2 years from Uniao Sao Joao), etc ... Yes they were already great. Rivaldo did leave later than a Ronaldo, but he still played most of the prime of his career in Europe. I am not saying Europe develops them, I am saying the "steal" them from us.

    My point was EVEN the average ones go. The great ones and the average ones. Either you are trolling or your comprehension is not that great.

    A bunch of tap ins. He still didn't play great. That's why he has been mostly dropped. He missed quite a few of easy 1 x 1's.

    Figure from 2009 in major European leagues: 138 Brazilians in England (16), Italy (41), France (26), Spain (26), Germany (29). Not counting the other leagues. That's a lot.

    Like I said, it's changing a bit now. But you and I know Neymar will probably end up in Europe soon.
     
    BocaFan repped this.
  25. Guigs

    Guigs Member+

    Dec 9, 2011
    Club:
    Vasco da Gama Rio Janeiro
    exactly my point! he has been good for a while... why is he now the second best striker in the world?
     

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