key players are called that for a reason. Because you put new players around them and they'll make them look good.. If you want me to be more specific I will... Spain's NT is not made up of World Class players. You had David Villa, Iniesta, Xavi, Puyol, Casillas. 5 World Class players... that's more than enough to carry a team. Barca had those 4 in 2011 look where it took them. This whole idea that a team has 11 World Class players is absurd. That is called hype my friend. Certain players make other much better, and having 4 World class players in 1 team is just insane! I refuse to allow people to call everyone world class... not everyone is Zidane, Ronaldo, Lothar, Maradona etc... There are very few World Class players, a top player in a good team does not make him world class. A great player that stands out on a team filled with great players is a great player... World Class stands out anywhere. So yes Barca was Spain and this past Euro it was still carried by their World Class player. Olympiacos, Montpellier, Group C, Nordsjælland (had to copy and paste that name), BATE, Lille, Celtic, Spartak M, Galatasaray, CFR, Braga, Ajax, Dynamo, Dinamo!... those are all pillars of international competition right now.. SUUUUUUUUUUUUUUURE.. that's in the group stages. Then out of the ones that do qualify past the group stages, the first knockout rounds is filled with teams just getting ran over by the likes of Real, Bayern, Barca. Very Competitive indeed. Please Chelsea - Juve.. behind Shaktar which will get ran over in the knockout stages Man City is last on their group... Brazil vs Portugal , Ghana vs Germany, Netherlands vs Japan, US vs UK, Spain vs Chile, Argentina vs Nigeria... well to me and the rest of the world.. those matches are more interesting. Again you seem to overestimate the importance of club football. Let's play statistics here... See there's a population of International Players, out of this population most don't get to play 1-2 full seasons under their National team during their career. Those that do play it over a long time on their career. So for the ones that do get to play a full season or more for their national team.. considering there are about 209 associations, and we can say at least the starting 11 for each gets to play enough int'l matches you're talking about 2300 players roughly... so here is your fact... if you give me 100 players.. hell 230 players! the fact remains true. Ask players from "top teams" that are playing against Iniesta and Xavi... they have every team that plays against them chase the ball. I said last 2011, and yes they were. Unlucky on tournaments, but great team. Sudamericana they ran into an Inspired Barcos (not even sure you know who this is but amazing striker) from LDU and Penarol in the Libertadores. But you know.. those are small time teams without any history or anything.
Villa didn't play in Euro 2012. And Alonso is obviously world-class. I wasn't talking about the importance or competitiveness. I was talking about the quality of the CL. You pointing-out Man City's (English champions) failure to qualify from the group-stages actually supports my point. 80% of Argentina's forwards have much lower GPG with NT compared to their club. It's not just Messi. So your "fact" that Messi's case is unique isn't a fact at all, just your opinion (which is easily refuted by facts). Nobody is saying that Iniesta and Xavi aren't great players that help Messi win trophies. Stop shifting the goalposts! The debate is about whether or not Messi's goal-scoring stats are inflated because of the world-class players he plays with. You listed 4 world class players on Barca that also carry Spain . But 2 of those players were injured for most of this season and last season yet Messi's goal-scoring stats only improved! Let me repeat that. The players you argue help Messi get amazing stats were injured, yet Messi's stats got more amazing in their absence! Also, Barca's possession game has not been as good this season as in the past, yet Messi is on pace to score 25% more Liga goals than last season (excluding penalties).
Great post, you hit the nail right on the head There is a scholastic term that I apply to this the "Messi lobby" And commebol comments just underline the insular nature of South Americans when it come to football, which is why tournaments like CA or libertadores don't appeal to mass audiences
The US's Hispanic population outnumbers its European population, but most of those Hispanics are not South American. It seems that Guigs' entire point in that long post rides on a "fact" that doesn't exist. What else is new?
Most Hispanics are more biased towards S. America... More than Half are Mexican, which favor S. American way more than Europe. The other are Caribbean hispanics which favor baseball... and then we got the S. American Hispanics... With spaniards being less than 1% Mexican teams play in the Libertadores, Mexican NT plays in Copa America. Mexico has a rivalry against Brazil and Argentina. Right there you got 60% of your US Latinos...
Of course his name will be remembered along with Maradona's name, Zidane, Pele, Ronaldo.... oh wait... what? or talks about the weakness of the EPL as a whole. Unless you also don't see Olympiakos being knocked off as a knock on the Greek League. I did point out the superior quality on the field of the CL... and how the superior quality of the CL only starts around the quarter finals of the knock-out stages. more of a knock on the current argentinean team, and how badly run they are... Not sure why Argentina still believes they can put a team filled with great offensive club names and be competitive. what can I tell you... every time I say La Liga is weaker than other leagues you say no... but it's top teams keep having +80 goal averages... Look one more time.. to me this is Messi.. an amazing goal scorer that's being hyped up because Fifa needs a hero. I understand Argentineas get really defensive about him, but man if he doesn't get a WC soon, he'll be just another Eusebio or Cryuff, sure they get talked about a lot, and some people consider them one of the greatest... But if you can't win... Xavi is older, Iniesta also getting older... why is this news, I've already mentioned once those 2 are done Barca is going to have a hard time staying at the top. Plus the season is 12 games in, too short of a sample size.
Most top SA talent still go to Europe. That's the main reason a lot of the World watches European competitions. And I am pretty sure the CA is pretty well viewed in the US.
What people don't realize is that the European Leagues are made mostly of local players, not international players. Do you really believe a Country like Spain has a better pool of players to fill their national league with probably around 15 million people at the age and sex of a footballer compared to Brazil's 60 million or more since Brazil has a median age of 28 years old.. while Spain has a median age of 39 being the closest to Brazil from Europeans top leagues. I know you guys really want to believe the euro leagues are stronger but the reality is that in order to field 20 quality teams if you have a bigger pool of players to pick from you'll get the strongest league. Brazil is the only country I know where a team can sell their players and replace them the following year with equal talent or better. Internacional went from Nilmar to Pato to L. Damiao, was that amazing scouting or just having a deeper pool of players? Fluminense sold Mariano and gets Wallace which has also just been sold! Let's see what they come up with next year. World Class players are harder to come by of course. They really only come around every 5 years or so, but some countries wait for 10-30 years before they get a world class player.
CA is well viewed in the US, but not even as close as the EURO. Euro's are on main stream sports channel, CA is not. This is all about branding.
Football is not rocket science. The leagues that look better probably are better. The teams that pay better probably are better. The player that looks like the best in the world, probably is the best in the world. No need to hype him up. All you have to do is watch him. Or if you're too lazy, just check the stats. And if Neymar doesn't win a world Cup, he'll be another Robinho. Personally I'd prefer Cryuff's and Eusebio's company.
The leagues that get more exposure always look better than leagues that don't get watched, and we've already established that marketing does not make the best of something but the most popular of something. Teams that pay are more competitive year after year, but not always the best team. Look at pay sheets around sports, there are always teams that overpay for talent. But since they can afford it, they'll just overpay for somebody else to replace their mistake. Smaller budget teams cannot afford such mistakes, but they can 100% be a better team if the right pieces fall into place. How about a player that looks like he's the best in the world, but then you throw him into a different team and he looks different? I've watched him play in numerous occasions, I question his performances against top competition where is not the same player as in La Liga. But I know who comments without watching.... I guess you haven't seen Neymar play... if you are still comparing him to Robinho... Robinho has 26 goals in 90 app for the Nat team... Neymar has 17 goals in 27 shows... Every game he is Brazil's best player and not just by scoring. You know you should watch him play.. you might just be impressed.
But you know Messi is a big time player! World's best player that has ever existed! He scores when needed! that kind of guy!... so he has 1 goal in 15 tournament games for Argentina. Big time! How can people really ignore this?
I am not even talking about teams or the league as whole. My point is the best talent goes to Europe and they go very early nowadays. People want to see the best players play. So you can brand all you want, but you can't sell an inferior product and expect to get the same result. Also SA has lagged Europe in the format and seriousness of competitions. Not long ago, the rules of the Brasileirao changed wildly almost every single year. The Libertadores just recently started becoming a more mature competition emulating a lot of characteristics from the CL. Pato barely had any impact on Internacional. 27 games total. And none of the players you mentioned are exceptional. Not that hard to replace average with average in Brazil...that is true. When you have money, like the top European clubs do, they are the ones who can really replace top talent with top talent. And they have the benefit of having the top talent in the prime of their careers play for them.
Part of it yes. Another consideration is that CA has 2 big recognizable teams to the general public in the US. Brazil and Argentina. While Europe have at least 4. Italy, Germany, France, (now) Spain, Netherlands, and even England.
Go about 3 posts back and you can see yourself saying 15 games is not a big enough sample size to judge. Okay, you said 12 games weren't enough, but close enough... (Besides, nobody is saying Messi as a teenager was one of the best ever. It's only around 2009 that he reached such a high level. So you're sample size is even smaller - 9 tournament games to be precise, of which 4 or 5 he didn't play well)
No doubt rich teams make mistakes. Paying $50m for Torres didn't make Chelsea any better. But if you add up all their purchases since 2004, yes, they did get a lot better. Money obviously helps a lot. It helped Barca blow-away Santos in the Club World Cup final in 2011. How come when referring to Messi you only look at tournament games, but with Neymar you look at friendlies? Robinho had a better Copa America (2007) than Neymar in 2011. So the same argument you use against Messi also works against Neymar.
Libertadores has been big for a long time now. And when players leaving for Europe are replaced right away for equal quality or even better, how good were they to being with? Exactly my point! those are average players leaving for Europe but somehow you guys are making them out to be great players because they left for Europe, when they get there and people realize that they are just avg players or even very good players but not Ronaldo... because there are tons of Ronaldos in Europe right? Nilmar was a big player leaving Inter, Pato comes in and is better than him, he leave for Europe, Damiao comes in and is better than Pato... That's my whole point. Players sold in Brazil get replaced right away. While Europeans think Nilmar and Pato are better than Damiao because they were sold and Damiao wasn't. Reality is Damiao plays in a stronger Brazil (financially) which can afford to keep him. My point is, there are very few exceptional players, game breakers that would change a team... Right now we may have only 4 world class player active right now, Iniesta, Xavi, Messi, C Ronaldo. 2 in their primes and 2 getting off their primes. Neymar is too young to be placed there for the people that wants him as a world class... but potentially he's the only other joining that list, all he really needs is a good showing at confed cup + this world cup, and keep his career in the same path. For the rest of the players all over the world, they are all replaceable, some of them get replaced every year by new up and coming 18-20 year olds. Also... Leagues in Europe are made up mostly of people from their own country, not from top to bottom with immigrants and the best talent money can buy. Not sure why you guys believe that is so. Another reminder, most teams in La Liga, EPL and Serie A are suffering to even pay their players on time right now... So why do you guys keep believing they have the top players in the field??? Those leagues have smaller pool of players to pick from, hence less talent to pick from the Brazilian league... very simple mathematics.
And that Barca team beat Real Madrid 5 x 0 that season... ummm maybe Santos was better than Real that year? Neymar got the Bronze boot on that game for a reason, he actually played very well vs Barca. But Barca is 1 team in La Liga... that league is made up of another 17 teams + Real Madrid. 2 goals in 4 games in 2011.. no too shabby.. being top player for Brazil. That's his only tournament for Brazil, let's see on the next 2 years how he will fare, if he does what people expect him to do, he'll cement his world class status.
Tournaments is where players make or break their status in History, that you cannot disagree with, it's the difference between Maradona and Cryuff
No, the manita over Real Madrid was the previous season when Barca was clicking on all cylinders. The 2011-12 Barca team had many La Liga games that were much tougher than Santos. You can't even admit it when Neymar doesn't play well. At least I can admit that Messi didn't play well in C.A. except for the Uruguay match. "2 goals in 4 games" just brushes over the fact that he was poor in 3 games, including the most important one.
What??? i had no idea Neymar got anything after that game, and why did he get the "bronze boot" (excuse my ignorance,but i don't know what that is) ??? No he didn't play well, but in all honnesty, it wasn't even his fault. No Santos player played well in that game, they all looked like fans admiring their idols on the pitch that day imo.
Yes they were clicking on all cylinders, they embarrassed all competition they played, from La Liga, CL and Santos http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010–11_La_Liga by the way +74 goal difference means they did a whole lot of embarrassing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010–11_UEFA_Champions_League add their Champion's League run... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copa_del_Rey_2010–11 Copa Del Rey... And they only lost 5 games that season... Santos didn't stand a chance.. much like everyone else in Europe. I can say Neymar didn't play well, but the problem is, when he doesn't it gets pointed out that he's not a quality player just look how badly he did... While Messi it becomes.. oh but he's great at Barcelona. Why can't we have the same approach to both? It's like this Falcao hype because he's in La Liga. Guy has been the same player for a long time, he has been a good striker and he'll always be a good striker. He's no better than a lot of forwards playing all over the world. But he plays in La Liga so he must be amazing.. La Liga has 2 amazing teams, about 3 1st division team, after that it's all second tier players. Not sure why people don't see it.
You got to watch that game once more, because Borges almost scored and Neymar also almost scored. That game was close shots to being 5x3.