Argentina? The answer is not much for that defense and goalkeeper. Forget about depth, they don't even have great starters in these positions. At forward Argentina has a great bench but not beyond what, say, Man City has. Brazil? Not a lot. Only Neymar would be expensive based on potential. Most of their players even Brazil clubs can afford. When it became obvious that Robinho wasn’t going to be the next Pele, Madrid got rid of him and replaced him with a better forward. Brazil was stuck with him. Germany? Very expensive. I agree that Germany and Spain can go head-to-head with any club team in the world at this time. They are both in the midst of a great generation. Best ever in the case of Spain. These 2 NT’s plus arguably Italy are the only NT’s that don’t have gaping holes in their squads.
I think you forget the players Brazil has. Even a player like Romulo which sits on the bench is one of the most expensive Defensive Midfielders in the World. Just between Thiago Silva, Oscar, Neymar, Lucas, Marcelo, Dede, David Luiz, Damiao, Dani Alves, Romulo, Hulk and Paulinho. You're looking at top 10 most expensive players at their positions. Inter declined Barca, Tottenham, Man City of Damiao at around 20+ million Euros Thiago Silva you know about Oscar you know about Neymar... 50+ has been declined over and over Lucas - PSG just wants to spend spend spend Marcelo - Try getting him out of Real see what it costs. Dede - declined AC Milan 15 million Euro David Luiz you know about Dani Alves - maybe now his price is declining Romulo - 8 million euros for a defensive midfielder... right that happens a lot Hulk - YAY FOR OIL MONEY! Paulinho - just got offered around 16 from Chelsea.. defensive mid whaaaat? it does happen a lot Remember, Brazilian players are more expensive than other country players to begin with! I think Chelsea just paid 5.5 million euros for an 18 year old wingback from Fluminense. He's not even on the National Team.
You couldn't build the Brazil NT with pocket change, but only Neymar, Hulk and Thiago Silva are among the most expensive players at their current club. And in Hulk's case its only because he is a good player on an average team. If he was on top club team he'd be coming of the bench... an access to requirements much like Dzecko or Higuain).
We're discussing prices I thought.. and how much a NT costs... I don't see where they play or if they are the top value on their teams comes into play. Especially since when discussing quality of players, most tend to ignore any player that plays outside of EPL, La Liga and Serie A.
I know, but Hulk is way over-priced. Not ignoring players outside the big 3 leagues, his stats are just not that impressive. Okay, but not great. He's price that high because of the hardships that come with playing in the RPL (plus its oil money so they don't really care). If I was trying to build a team as good as Brazil and I couldn't get Hulk because he is way overpriced , I could go after, say, Jesus Navas for €20m. Who is a better player anyway.... So yeah, wouldn't be that expensive to build a team of Brazil's level. Well within the budget of the top club teams in the world.
But this is something different. I'm talking specifically about the NT's players. Again to discuss their lvl of play is another topic, which we'll never agree on since it really depends on who you like more or less. I could say Romulo is better than Sandro (tottenham) and Paulinho is better than all of them. Only to have people that are EPL fans laugh at me simply because they don't see the other 2 playing.
We'll never agree anyway since it is subjective what a player is worth. Especially players who haven't moved or been involved in transfer rumors for a while (e.g. Dani Alves). But I think it is reasonable to claim that Hulk is not "worth" anywhere near €40m. I used Navas as an example since he is also a forward/winger who most would say is better than Hulk (you can't say he is overrated - he plays for Sevilla) and was rumored to go to Arsenal which is a club that generally pays the market price for players.
People paying that much for a player doesn't make him overrated. Just makes him valuable, nobody is expecting hulk to out perform that contract.
That's ONLY correct with smaller NT. For big power house in football, NT always have better players all around > their own clubs in their league like previous post: Spain NT > Barca, Real (since they possessed 50% of each team combined) France NT > PSG (which only got good attack) Brazil NT >> Santos, SaoPaolo Argentina >> Boca River plate ... Only England NT < ManU or Chelsea (as special case, since they had a hard time produce good players - until Wilsheere, Strurridge, Beck, Champerlain ... catching up)
I'd argue that while NT's (usually) have more depth, the starting lineups of the best club teams in the world are just as good if not better than the starting lineups for the best NT's. It's not fair to compare the best Brazilian clubs to the Brazil NT because the best Brazilian players (most of them) aren't even playing in Brazil. The same goes for almost any other league outside of England, Italy, Spain, and maybe Germany. Don't compare the best NT's in the world to clubs from their own country, but rather to the best clubs in the world (unless in the case of one of the aforementioned countries).
Spain is missing the best attackers and best defender of both Barca and Madrid. Not true. Thiago Silva has been great for PSG. Also France's midfield sucks, so your comparison makes no sense. So now you are comparing two of the top 8 int'l teams with a club team that just came up from the 2nd division And isn't even one of the top 100 club teams in the world? WTF?
Exactly! Why does he keep compating Argentina to Riber? Man City>>> Peru Chelsea >> trinidad and Tobago Boom! How does it feel now?
no sense to someone who lacked info or having a misconception Spain = Barca + Real (plus Torres Silva Jesus Carzola Mata Llorent Negredo ... ) So Spain NT >> both ofthem France NT > PSG (yeah you should have youtube to watch how France NT midfield gave Spain NT a hard time last friendly) Germany NT >= Bayern or dormund .. Italy NT > Juve Only ManU > England NT (at present) Netherland NT >> Ajax or any
NO .. Money "distorted" the facts ... Yeah money could buy many superstars into 1 team like Real Chelsea, Mancity .. but they were NO REAL winners but a whole bunch of individuals = FAKED QUALITY (or simply put ONLY on paper) NT of big 10 teams >> their own best club in their NT period ... (except England NT now)
Brilliant !! Why has nobody figured this out ! I will take your rationale further. If Spain are Barca minus Messi, and they've won the last 3 major competitions, Barca without Messi would have won 4 CLs in a row instead of 2/4. Not to mention La Liga last year. So Barcelona would actually be better without Messi ...
yes. cristiano won la liga but not CL. if only he won the CL the ballon d'or is in hand. ballon d'or for individual not team. base on last season messi has the best individual season and he only missed out euro since he is argentina and what is the difference if you take out ronaldo at madrid ? he is not better than messi. Ronaldo is replaceable for me but not messi. there is a reason why they challange him to win WC which i think he will never win. if you mention about record.. which 1 is better ? the record messi broken that he just beat pele goal in single year or the record ronaldo hold like you mention ? They both simply fail to win CL which is why this topic is made but both of them the best and messi still no 1 and cristiano no 2... pity ozil or alonso because whenever someone mention messi they always mention xavi and iniesta but ozil and alonso always left out by ronaldo fan.. credit to both of them that madrid won la liga.
Messi has a better supporting cast, that's hard to argue against considering his team without him is pretty much the Spaniard team, which has done a lot of winning in the past 8 years, without Messi. Messi scores tons of goals against bad opposition, he's so good that if you put a sub par defense against them he'll just thrive, especially when he's playing with Barcelona. But until he proves that he can do it without Barca, to me he's just the best striker I've seen since Ronaldo, the difference... Ronaldo did it everywhere.. not just on the most stacked team ever. And we'll never see him outside of Barca unless he's playing for Argentina.. and he's been decent for Argentina... Decent is not a word I associate with best ever, or best in the world. Even on this great run he's at right now during qualifying he's only 1 goal up on the second best scorer... Again not what I expect from the best of the world or best ever. To me Messi is an amazing striker, that once Iniesta and Xavi are out of Barca, will become a great striker that won't score as many goals anymore. I think the Argentinean National Team has given us enough of a sample size to prove that.
This might have been true 2-4 years ago, but not anymore. Your comment is outdated. First of all, there were 8 Barca players on Spain's NT that won the Euro versus 5 Madrid players. So, yes, Barca have more but its not 23-0 like you say. Second, Madrid has some of the best players from the Germany, Brazil, France and Portugal NT's. In Barca, if you take away Messi you are just left with Spain + Alves + Mascherano + Alexis Messi has been the top scorer in the CL knockout stages for the past 3-4 years. Actually, Ronaldo didn't do too well in the Champions League. And how many goals did Maradona score for Argentina in his career? You seem to be under the impression that Messi plays the "9" role regularly for Argentina.
Spain just won the Euro.. not outdated You really have to consider that Iniesta and Xavi are the main engine for the Spaniard team and Barca. Once they are gone, Spain's dominance will leave with them. Those 2 are truly the 2 best players in the world... the discussion between Messi and Ronaldo should end there. played more games than any other players is part of it. Another part is the historic Barca team that won by crushing everyone. But let's say.. for shits and giggles... last year's CL Messi Scored 6 vs Bayer L Messi Scored 2x from the pk spot against Milan Then he went quiet against Chelsea. The year they won Scored 2x vs Arsenal (1pk) Scored 1 vs Shakthar Scored 2x vs Real Scored once vs Man U Seemed like he even had a better post season when he lost uh. The year before that, Messi pulled the same kind of stunt, lots of goals in blowouts, going quiet against top teams. The off year is the one in the middle there... Same for the previous year when Barca won... I meant Ronaldo Phenom. Back to that whole conversation about.. what's the point of scoring a hat trick when your team is winning by 2? To inflate your personal stats? good for Messi, he scores tons of goals against Messi is Barcelona's Striker, there's no really arguing that.. His field positioning makes it obvious, the difference is that people tend to think that all 9s are forwards that are poachers, target man or deep lying forwards, but the reality is there are a lot more advanced forwards showing up on the game. Messi will not cross into the defensive side and run after the ball, he'll leave himself open so when his teammates cause a steal or interception and they can off the ball quickly for him to try and rush the defense. So let's pick, he's either a forward... or a mid player that doesn't help on defense.
Your comment is outdated because the quality of Madrid's team has improved a lot since Ronaldo's first season in Spain. Also (in 2012) Spain NT is a mix of RM, Barca and EPL players. It's not like 2010 when Spain = Barca minus Messi. Right, so did I. Brazilian Ronaldo didn't have a great career in the Champions League. You are shifting the goalposts again. You were talking about Messi with Argentina as being evidence that Messi won't score much without Xavi and Iniesta. You can't really compare the two cases because Messi plays a different position with Argentina. The argument is also flawed because Xavi & Iniesta help the defense far more than they helpMessi. What they are best at is preventing the other team from scoring. They don't really have a significant, direct impact on Messi's or anybody else's goal-tally and illustrated by their relatively low assist total.
To add to this, why did you think I was talking about Cristiano Ronaldo? CRonaldo has had a great CL career. Better than fat Ronaldo.
Spain Key players are still in Barca, and 2o11 is when Barca was beastly, this year and last year.. not so much. Fatboy wore the big boy pants in the big boy tournament. CL is for little euro kids. He'll take the WC thank you very much. Don't compare somebody that can't wear the big boy pants with somebody that can't.... What did the WC told Lionel Messi? Welcome to the big leagues kid... Wanna know why Maradona is still the best player of Argentina all time... because he has the hand of god... while Messi has tons of goals for Barcelona... he doesn't have goals named after.. Maradona does... OH but yes! Messi scored a goal just like maradona's! running from the midfield dribbling looking great... Only Maradona did it on the WC... So until Messi wins something with the big boys.. He'll forever be... every big boy's bitch... He's not even on my top 20 list of all time... I have to fill it with 20 names like Lothar Matthäus, Jürgen Klinsmann, roberto carlos, cafu, romario, cannavaro, david villa, xavi, ronaldo, zidane, henry, deschamps, ruddi voller, passarela, maradona, pele, mario kempes, carlos alberto, bobby moore, garrincha, nilton santos... etc etc etc You know what they all have in common? Winners baby! of the big boy tournament.. not some club competition. But they also have something else in common.. they actually were a big part why their team won, they weren't mere supporting actors in this great play... they were the main characters... everyone in a good enough sample size keeps their goal per game avg = to their club's performance... not him. There's the knock on Messi... and Messi defenders try to look the other way.. but reality is a bitch. Actually that helps my argument even more, assists are much like goals, just because players don't have stats it doesn't mean they are not important.. A lot of the worlds top players ever are defenders, but they almost never make people's top 10 list.. if ever! So Iniesta and Xavi, steal the ball, intercept passes, keep possession for their team and control a match completely. Setup plays where the more offensive players are put in a position for easy crosses or even goal attempts.... But.. Messi does not benefit from never having to chase after the ball while the other teams defenders are doing that all game long, getting tired and tired... Because I believe the whole team benefits from having possession 60% + of the match. You said Messi is not a forward, so tell me.. what is he? since he never chases the ball down on defense. Because attacking mids have defensive responsibilities I know it's hard to believe.. but up until 3 years ago the CL meant absolutely nothing to me.. I only knew who the champion was because they were playing in the Club WC. Only until I started working with a Briton, and Argentinean that followed Barca cause of Messi, another Argentinean that is a Velez crazy person, and a Jamaican that is insane for Inter Milan that I started to follow their leagues. So guess what the CL means to more to about half of the people that watch Football worldwide... It means nothing... 300 million saw the last CL final... 700 million saw the last WC final... that's an extra 400 million followers of football... UEFA does a great job selling their CL final, and their rating will be ever increasing. Chelsea vs Bayern got a better rating than Barca vs Man U. Explain to me how the worldwide giant Barca and Man U got worse ratings than up and coming Chelsea and Bayern, big team but not even close to Man U or Barca's popularity worldwide? Here is the answer.. people will watch the CL final regardless of who's playing. They won't watch the tournament (CL games have a lower rating then EPL games in the US) but since UEFA does a great job selling the final as a big event (which is) they'll watch that. UEFA is doing a good job selling it... regardless of what happens on the field or who is playing it will sell. The Brand of Lebron James is a bigger in the world than Messi. Football is more popular worldwide than Basketball.. and Lebron James is more popular then the most popular active footballer in the world? Pele, Maradona and David Beckham.. there is your list of most popular footballers in today's world... Messi is an attempt of Fifa to create it's own Brand, because in order to sell something you must have a brand to sell. You can't just sell the game or it will never grown.. ask the NFL which tries to keep it's stars hidden from everyone, but can't grown like the NBA has grown outside of the U.S.
People like Superstars, not sports... you know why Messi gets sold more than C. Ronaldo, because he behaves the way people want their superstars to behave. So he gets the push from Fifa to be the best in the world.. It's easier to sell nice white boy Messi, than douchbag Ronaldo. If Ronaldo was more of a family man, quiet, didn't make the tabloids dating superstars... he likely would have gotten player of the year more often. People see what they want to see... but Fifa player of the year has a lot more to do with marketing than what's on the field nowadays. Euro games reaching the US and South America is something relatively recent. You can see that every Euro and CL final is beating TV audiences, regardless of play in the field, that's a trend that will continue to rise as UEFA keeps striving for more popularity which means more money. On the other side of the world, COMNEBOL is a circus, will continue to be a circus until South Americans are not involved in it, which means it will always be a circus... Think about the potential audience it has and how far it reaches.. it's pretty sad. There is a bigger hispanic market in the U.S. than euro market. Most American know that Brazil is the best country in the world of football and Pele is their best player (i've heard this so many times it's laughable). Mexico loves Brazilian football and Argentinean Football, There are tons of Brazilians playing in the Chinese League and they are superstars there, Brazilians playing in the Japanese leagues and they are superstars there! But somehow.. COMNEBOL fails to market to the US or Mexico or China or Japan... They market much like the NFL... to their own audience... Which means.. Copa Libertadores ratings go up and down depending on the teams that are playing.
Obviously you didn't watch Euro 2012. And that's the problem with comparing players in different eras. CL didn't exist in Maradona's era. Today its the highest-level of competition in the world. Do not even try to compare games like today's Chelsea-Juve or tomorrow's Man City-Madrid match with a Germany v Australia WC match. Facts are not your strong suit, but do you have to keep reminding us again and again? Aguero's GPG for NT is much worse than with club. Tevez' GPG for NT is much worse than with his club. Diego Milito's GPG for NT is much worse than with his club. And that's just from Argentina... Right, because the other top players in the world play for teams that are always chasing the ball. So this explains your ridiculous comment earlier that Velez = #3 team in the world. BTW Velez just lost to Boca Juniors at home. lulz